Bigger vans

[Lee.Van.Cleef]

There’s some nice touches on that van. But i wonder what the residual value will be in 3 years?
We were convinced about a conversion, but the final build cost and future value put us off.
At least with Hymer, Knaus or Grand Cali, there should be a decent residual.
Not sure, I personally would ever buy a used self build or small time converter van…

Yep. Uncertain residuals of conversations (and availability) was what pushed us towards a Cali, despite it's limitations and imperfections. We did consider some of the VW approved converters which I assume have better residuals.

 

[kave]

Has anyone stumbled across Project Yonder? One of the nicer conversions but you’ll need to lay down after you’ve seen the starting prices. Seem to be influenced by self builds but the finishes, electrics and toilet/shower are in a different league, well I guess they have to be at that price. A rival for RP Motorhones, I don’t think so.

Home | Project Yonder

Adventure begins when you step behind the wheel... We have brand new 4X4 Mercedes Sprinter campervans available to reserve today!

projectyonder.co.uk

Potential customers might be worried all interior “photos” are rendered on their site.

 

[Corradobrit]

Potential customers might be worried all interior “photos” are rendered on their site.

Maybe they haven't actually built one yet.
Looking at the About Us page I see lots of fluff regarding their philosophy, experience as campervaners but absolutely nothing about how long they have been in business, or their backgrounds/experience that would relate to the company's product, or how many customer Campers have actually been built and delivered.

A risky proposition to say the least......

 

[Lee.Van.Cleef]

Never seen one in the flesh but If money were no object I'd be tempted by https://cjlleisure.co.uk/

 

[Andya]

We are after a 6m van as our Cali is brilliant but we want the fixed bed and a bathroom, we like the Hymer and went to look at a 2024 Hymer Campus which was nice but we both felt the interior quality wasn't that good and the front screen and two front seat window blinds are possibly the most flimsy and annoying things I have seen, they are like internal wind deflectors and when I went to close the drivers door and grabbed the plastic to close the door as it was almost unavoidable that will not last 5 minutes before it breaks, and the front screen has this horrible rail at the base of the screen for the blinds to slide across, why on earth didn't they just not put blinds on those windows and provide you with the brandrup screen and side window external covers just like they do on the Westfalia Sven Hedin and not having a grab handle on the pillars like the Cali has is another oversight for me, I wish I liked the GC600 but that high roof is something I couldn't live with!

The Westfalia dealer says he may get a few more Sven's next year so fingers crossed they do.

 

[Billylou]

There’s some nice touches on that van. But i wonder what the residual value will be in 3 years?
We were convinced about a conversion, but the final build cost and future value put us off.
At least with Hymer, Knaus or Grand Cali, there should be a decent residual.
Not sure, I personally would ever buy a used self build or small time converter van…

That’s a good point, when do self build vans become recognised as main stream conversions? Guess it will come down to volume and how accessible they are to potential buyers. There isn’t that much information available other than their own website, not sure if they’ve actually sold a van yet and it appears they have vans waiting to convert. That said I wish them well as I think they have a really good van. I think the price will determine their success as it seems they have a very narrow market. From what I understand they will be at the NEC in Feb so I’ll have a look.

 

[Billylou]

Maybe they haven't actually built one yet.
Looking at the About Us page I see lots of fluff regarding their philosophy, experience as campervaners but absolutely nothing about how long they have been in business, or their backgrounds/experience that would relate to the company's product, or how many customer Campers have actually been built and delivered.

A risky proposition to say the least......

Think you’re right on all counts.

 

[soulstyledevon]

Never seen one in the flesh but If money were no object I'd be tempted by https://cjlleisure.co.uk/

They were at the NEC last October.
Very busy stand, not my cup of tea to be honest, especially when they’re priced around £150k mark.

The dilemma, how much is a converted van really worth…?

 

[Ch1pbutty]

The dilemma, how much is a converted van really worth…?

As much as the buyer / future buyer is willing to pay.

 

[Lee.Van.Cleef]

They were at the NEC last October.
Very busy stand, not my cup of tea to be honest, especially when they’re priced around £150k mark.

The dilemma, how much is a converted van really worth…?

£yikes!
I might keep an on 'nearly new' models in a year or two.

 

[soulstyledevon]

As much as the buyer / future buyer is willing to pay.

We’ve been talking ceiling prices on here for a while now. I’m pretty much at my peak.
It was a tough decision to go with our latest purchase, truth be told…

 

[Dasteknoviking]

Take a look at Affinity, which is owned by Kabe, a very top of the line Swedish company.

They have two different versions on a MAN TGE.

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[Billylou]

Take a look at Affinity, which is owned by Kabe, a very top of the line Swedish company.

They have two different versions on a MAN TGE.

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I like those a lot, interesting layouts that differentiate them from the rest of the converters. Globe Traveller, which are available in the UK, are not dissimilar and might be off the same production line.

 

[Dasteknoviking]

Well Affinity is a Polish company which makes their vans not too far from Poznan where VW builds the Grand California/Crafter.

Globe Traveler is Polish as well, but I have not been able to find if they are independent or belong to another group - could be Kabe.... Hence the similarities?

Similar to Knaus/Weisnberg etc.

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[CamperFam]

We've been floating around the thoughts of a bigger van since day dot for the added space, the ability to not have to remove child seats every time we want the bed out, etc. The problem we have is that we've been spoiled with the California Ocean on all the other elements. And when looking at the market, a vast amount cater for two berth, rather than four.

The Grand California 600 is the simple progression route I guess, but the materials, the layout, the specification is all so much lower than the Ocean; one leisure battery, no inverter, majority of the Cali's 'included spec' is all optional etc. To spec an equivalent to the Ocean, we're looking at £86k + 3.88 tonnes (and then a fresh license needed for both the mrs and I (a spritely 31 and 35 years old respectively).

When then looking at the alternatives (Knaus, etc) we'd be facing even higher cost to change, and none of the VW perks (simple serving, warranty, parts etc) - albeit from what i'm led to believe, the Grand has it's own warranty fix issues with 3-4 trips just to diagnose.

I think if the Grand California were more on-part with what the California Ocean offers, VW would make an absolute killing with the market. But when looking at Adria, Knaus etc, none of them scartch the itch.

And all because this blasted Cali Ocean is too good

 

[Dasteknoviking]

You can't compare the Ocean vs GC. One really offers you all creature comfort of home VS other not having a important bathroom. One is something you can daily drive to work/shops and park in a garage, other is a dedicated leisure vehicle.

I also find it more secure with a solid roof vs pop top when doing a overnight stop at a large truck stop in Europe. With all that is going on in the world I don't feel secure sleeping at a transit site like a truck stop with roof up.

In terms of Grand California, I think all it's short comings can be fixed and you can have a van that hits on all the key points.

For me it's important that I have a great driving base vehicle (Crafter is one) vs a lavish interior. I simply can't wrap my head around the fact that there are people who spend close to 150k € on a Citroen/Ducato based van! These things are horrible to drive and I don't care it's a Hymer or Niesmann-Bischoff, the basic rolling chassis is the same on a 150k Hymer vs a 40k XGO.


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[soulstyledevon]

For me it's important that I have a great driving base vehicle (Crafter is one) vs a lavish interior. I simply can't wrap my head around the fact that there are people who spend close to 150k € on a Citroen/Ducato based van! These things are horrible to drive and I don't care it's a Hymer or Niesmann-Bischoff, the basic rolling chassis is the same on a 150k Hymer vs a 40k XGO.


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I spent £75k on a Fiat Hymer and absolutely hated it from the moment I drove it off the forecourt.
10 months later and it was gone, to be replaced with the Mercedes Hymer (arriving soon).

Can’t deny, when we’re based in one place , I fell in love with the little Fiat van. The camping experience superseded a California in every aspect. I only fell out of love, once it started moving…

Harbour Aire Holland, good times.

 

[CamperFam]

You can't compare the Ocean vs GC. One really offers you all creature comfort of home VS other not having a important bathroom. One is something you can daily drive to work/shops and park in a garage, other is a dedicated leisure vehicle.

I also find it more secure with a solid roof vs pop top when doing a overnight stop at a large truck stop in Europe. With all that is going on in the world I don't feel secure sleeping at a transit site like a truck stop with roof up.

In terms of Grand California, I think all it's short comings can be fixed and you can have a van that hits on all the key points.

For me it's important that I have a great driving base vehicle (Crafter is one) vs a lavish interior. I simply can't wrap my head around the fact that there are people who spend close to 150k € on a Citroen/Ducato based van! These things are horrible to drive and I don't care it's a Hymer or Niesmann-Bischoff, the basic rolling chassis is the same on a 150k Hymer vs a 40k XGO.


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I get your point regarding comparison, but the same could be said for anyone looking for a bigger van. The spring board (Ocean) is just too strong a proposition. Very much agree re pop top however.

And to be fair, 'daily' varies depending on location, use case etc. We rarely find any height restricted areas and at only 50cm longer than an Ocean, the 600's length is immaterial. The 680 is a different story.

 

[wildslammer22]

I get your point regarding comparison, but the same could be said for anyone looking for a bigger van. The spring board (Ocean) is just too strong a proposition. Very much agree re pop top however.

And to be fair, 'daily' varies depending on location, use case etc. We rarely find any height restricted areas and at only 50cm longer than an Ocean, the 600's length is immaterial. The 680 is a different story.

The Cali is a masterclass in packaging honed over many iterations with a desirable base vehicle. The same may eventually happen with the GC but I suspect sales volumes, much more crowded market place and current VW woes/Stategic direction will prevent it becoming the default choice for upsizers it potentially could be.

For my use case the Cali is perfect, it’s the Swiss Army knife of daily drive vehicles. Shame VW couldn’t quite make it the leatherman in terms of quality, with seemingly each iteration suffering a minor dip in build quality to counteract the increased tech and kit.

 

[Dasteknoviking]

I spent £75k on a Fiat Hymer and absolutely hated it from the moment I drove it off the forecourt.
10 months later and it was gone, to be replaced with the Mercedes Hymer (arriving soon).

Can’t deny, when we’re based in one place , I fell in love with the little Fiat van. The camping experience superseded a California in every aspect. I only fell out of love, once it started moving…

Harbour Aire Holland, good times.
View attachment 117675

That's exactly what I mean, the living quarters can be lavish and wonderful - depending on who made the conversion. Fiat body allows a lot more space as well due to it not being as narrow at the top vs the Crafter.

But like you said, when you start to drive the vehicle... It's not a experience you want to have. The van is also quite drafty feeling with poorly insulated doors.

I always explain to my colleagues that Ducato driving position = orangutan.

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[Corradobrit]

Shame VW couldn’t quite make it the leatherman in terms of quality, with seemingly each iteration suffering a minor dip in build quality to counteract the increased tech and kit.

Have to take issue with this. The leisure area has improved considerably over the different generations. No more flimsy tambour doors, double glass worktop, a better user interface. I'm also going to say the poptop fabric is a big advance too assuming the 04S is a long term fix for the leaks.
The only aspect I will agree with is the application of cheaper plastics in the cabin. But once I'm in the driving seat and enjoying it as a camper it doesn't even cross my mind.

 

[Billylou]

For me it's important that I have a great driving base vehicle (Crafter is one) vs a lavish interior. I simply can't wrap my head around the fact that there are people who spend close to 150k € on a Citroen/Ducato based van! These things are horrible to drive and I don't care it's a Hymer or Niesmann-Bischoff, the basic rolling chassis is the same on a 150k Hymer vs a 40k XGO.

That’s me. We’ve changed 3 vans since we sold our Cali and await delivery of our new van. All vans since the Cali have been built on a Ducato chassis including the new van albeit on an Al-Ko chassis. I would never say a Ducato/Sevel van drives better than a VW as it doesn’t but it fairness I quite like them. We put back end layout, comfort and functionality above the front end as we spend over 6 months a year away from home. We drove 11k miles this year and it was more than comfortable. Don’t get me wrong as I’d be over joyed if the new van was a Mercedes/VW but the fact it isn’t doesn’t bother us.

 

[wildslammer22]

Have to take issue with this. The leisure area has improved considerably over the different generations. No more flimsy tambour doors, double glass worktop, a better user interface. I'm also going to say the poptop fabric is a big advance too assuming the 04S is a long term fix for the leaks.
The only aspect I will agree with is the application of cheaper plastics in the cabin. But once I'm in the driving seat and enjoying it as a camper it doesn't even cross my mind.

I was referring to the multiple issues a lot of new Cali owners seem to have judging by comments on the various forums. People rejecting their new Calis as not fit for purpose, bellows gate, media and control systems becoming ever more complex and buggy etc. My own personal experience from renting a few T6.1’s and owning a T6 is that the cab quality has taken quite a marked dip.

This of course maybe largely down to the fact that these sort of forums tend to amplify the negatives and can create false impressions The danger being that perception is reality for many. It’s why I really enjoyed the travel blogs that appear on here from time to time - they really highlight the joy of Cali ownership.


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[Wondering Star]

Ok it's not a daily driver, doesn't need to be. However I can stand up in it, go to the loo, even shower at a push and don't need to constantly pack/ unpack moving various bits of kit around to go to bed.
Great to drive, fantastic cab and super supportive seats.
3.5 yrs and 22000 miles the only issue a failed tap micro switch (2024 models have improved tap).
Build quality is excellent and hardwearing even the windscreen front door blinds mentioned by Andya are still working correctly.
Biggest disappointment is my local Mercedes truck dealership but that's another story. For sure the bigger van has given more opportunities to travel in the winter. Not just having more internal space but little things like a heated bathroom for drying wet weather gear.
It's certainly wet in the Lakes this new year, constant rain but loving it.
The Cali was great but for us with a growing family just a little too small, the bigger Hymer Mercedes 6m van that felt massive in the early days is not so much now there's even talk or moving upto a 7m Sprinter?

 

[GrannyJen]

In defence of my Ducato..

Guess what? It's a van and shock! Horror! Drives and sounds like one. It has none of the sophistication and car-like qualities of the VW.

However, for a mere 40cm more in length I can have a supremely comfortable fixed bed and a bathroom plus kitchen/bathroom with hot running water. I can come in totally shattered from a day out, put the kettle on, get my dinner on the go, plug all my electrical and electronic bits in, and not have to move anything out of the way.

If I'm not going out, perhaps writing and editing, I can spread my papers out, have as many cups of tea as I want, make a sandwich, change seats, go to the loo, wash my hands in hot water, all without moving anything around.

When I want to I can go to bed. As Said previously, a supremely comfortable bed, with no faffing around, can just leave my papers where they are, can put the kettle on when I like, can wash down, go to the loo, all without moving anything around.

When I havw to move, subject myself to that horror of driving, it takes ten minutes to put everything away, turn my captains chair around, climb in and go, my 180 PS Engine soon getting me up to speed and a totally smooth 9 speed auto gearbox changing gears. I get home just as quick as I did in the Cali, but not quite as comfortable.

Oh, the other thing, looking at all these £100k plus prices being tossed around. When I bought it new 2.5 years ago with all the extra's I could find on it, it cost me £65k.

Regarding quality: Nothing, nothing, has broken or gone wrong in 250 nights of camping. I could not say that about any of my previous California's.

Horses for courses.