Disaster at sea

[ArunAlec]

I reckon most combustion engine fires start whilst they are being driven,from rubbing fuel lines,hot turbos etc as already mentioned. Ev fires are starting whilst they are standing still. I wouldn't charge one of those things in an integral garage that's for sure

How long until there’s a “No EV” clause in house insurance?

 

[andyinluton]

How long until there’s a “No EV” clause in house insurance?

I would be extremely worried about developments with parking underneath houses. this is the current technical requirements:

Diagram 5.1 indicates that the wall and any floor between the garage and the house including any openings to have 30 minutes fire resistance and the floor to fall away from any connecting door to the outside, or in accordance with paragraph 5.7 be positioned 100mm above the garage floor level.


30 minutes fire resistance just gives you time to escape! you might as well get out & keep going to the nearest estate agents, if its an electric car alight under your house you are going to be needing a new one.

 

[ArunAlec]

I would be extremely worried about developments with parking underneath houses. this is the current technical requirements:

Diagram 5.1 indicates that the wall and any floor between the garage and the house including any openings to have 30 minutes fire resistance and the floor to fall away from any connecting door to the outside, or in accordance with paragraph 5.7 be positioned 100mm above the garage floor level.


30 minutes fire resistance just gives you time to escape! you might as well get out & keep going to the nearest estate agents, if its an electric car alight under your house you are going to be needing a new one.

The specification of 30 minutes fire resistant materials was probably assuming “normal” fire rather than the intense heat of a battery fire…… glad my drive is nearer next doors house than mine!

 

[andyinluton]

The specification of 30 minutes fire resistant materials was probably assuming “normal” fire rather than the intense heat of a battery fire…… glad my drive is nearer next doors house than mine!

The 30mins of course assumes that its been built correctly with the fire stopping in the right places etc, the quickest fire I have been involved with was the rebuilding of a timber framed 4 storey block in South West London where the fire stopping had been left out. It took 14 minutes from initial outbreak to there being literally nothing left.
Thanks to an alert dog everyone got out unhurt.


Theres some interesting statistics & information in the attached document relating to car parks, EVs & fire

 

[flying banana]

The 30mins of course assumes that its been built correctly with the fire stopping in the right places etc, the quickest fire I have been involved with was the rebuilding of a timber framed 4 storey block in South West London where the fire stopping had been left out. It took 14 minutes from initial outbreak to there being literally nothing left.
Thanks to an alert dog everyone got out unhurt.


Theres some interesting statistics & information in the attached document relating to car parks, EVs & fire

After reading just part of that document,car parks will need massive infrastructure upgrades . On top of fitting charging cables and stations,they will need structural improvements , thermal monitoring, better fire suppression systems and extraction. They are going to become very expensive indeed or EVs will need banning to outside only. Airport parking is bad enough already. Wait until we start paying for this load of crap to be fitted.

 

[andyinluton]

After reading just part of that document,car parks will need massive infrastructure upgrades . On top of fitting charging cables and stations,they will need structural improvements , thermal monitoring, better fire suppression systems and extraction. They are going to become very expensive indeed or EVs will need banning to outside only. Airport parking is bad enough already. Wait until we start paying for this load of crap to be fitted.

I also picked up that water run off from fighting a EV fire is contaminated with heavy metals to the extent that it shouldn’t be allowed into the general sewerage system.

 

[pjm-84]

?

Most available empirical evidence to date suggests that fires in EVs are less likely to occur
than in hybrid vehicles and petrol or diesel vehicles [10] [11] [12]. However, this will need to be monitored as fire risk may increase as cars age, and as EVs become more
affordable to a wider range of drivers

This analysis showed that the average percentage of fire claims per year for an EV out of
the average number of licenced EVs was 0.001%, and 0.003% for both plug-in hybrid
vehicles and REEVs. This is lower than 0.007% for petrol vehicles and 0.011% for diesel vehicles. This is shown in Figure 7 and Table 2.

 

[andyinluton]

Most available empirical evidence to date suggests that fires in EVs are less likely to occur
than in hybrid vehicles and petrol or diesel vehicles [10] [11] [12]. However, this will need to be monitored as fire risk may increase as cars age, and as EVs become more
affordable to a wider range of drivers

I'll just copy & past the next paragraph for balance:

This may contrast with data in London. The London Fire Brigade (LFB) attended 811 car fires in 2021, of which 56 (6.9%) involved electric vehicles. Note: this data includes all vehicles that have an EV power supply (drive), so includes battery electric vehicles, plug in hybrids and hybrid electric vehicles. The cause of 25 (3%) of these was attributed to an electrical fault (not necessarily the lithium-ion batteries or related to charging) [11]. 2% of London’s vehicles are ultra-low emission vehicles based on data for the first half of 2021[49], which includes battery electric (EV), plug-in hybrid electric and fuel cell electric vehicles [18].



The early research and available data suggest that EVs are less likely to catch fire than ICEVs. It is acknowledged that as cars age, they are more likely to have a fire [10]. This may be a factor in why EVs present a lower fire risk than ICEVs; the oldest EVs are only 12 years old compared to ICEVs which can be significantly over 12 years old.

 

[flying banana]

I'll just copy & past the next paragraph for balance:

This may contrast with data in London. The London Fire Brigade (LFB) attended 811 car fires in 2021, of which 56 (6.9%) involved electric vehicles. Note: this data includes all vehicles that have an EV power supply (drive), so includes battery electric vehicles, plug in hybrids and hybrid electric vehicles. The cause of 25 (3%) of these was attributed to an electrical fault (not necessarily the lithium-ion batteries or related to charging) [11]. 2% of London’s vehicles are ultra-low emission vehicles based on data for the first half of 2021[49], which includes battery electric (EV), plug-in hybrid electric and fuel cell electric vehicles [18].



The early research and available data suggest that EVs are less likely to catch fire than ICEVs. It is acknowledged that as cars age, they are more likely to have a fire [10]. This may be a factor in why EVs present a lower fire risk than ICEVs; the oldest EVs are only 12 years old compared to ICEVs which can be significantly over 12 years old.

Maybe. BUT most ice fires happen whilst being driven. You don't drive them about on ferries or chunnel. Ev fires are happening whilst being driven but a lot are happening whilst charging or just sat there. So these statistics are bollocks

 

[Azteccamper]

Maybe. BUT most ice fires happen whilst being driven. You don't drive them about on ferries or chunnel. Ev fires are happening whilst being driven but a lot are happening whilst charging or just sat there. So these statistics are bollocks

Aren’t a few ice car fires also started on purpose? Used to be a thing - rob car and torch it!

 

[pjm-84]

Yep. Off course if they steal an EV they dont torch it. Lol. Just a quick Google search. Bmw Hybrid in there

BMW recalling 1.03 mln vehicles worldwide on engine fire risk

BMW will recall 1.03 million worldwideover potential fire risks, the German automaker said on Wednesday, its third recall over the issue since 2017.

www.reuters.com

Ford recalls 125,000 vehicles over engine failures that can cause fires

Ford Motor Co said on Tuesday it is expanding and issuing a new recall for 125,000 sport utility vehicles and trucks because engine failures may cause a fire.

www.reuters.com

https://www.npr.org/2023/03/23/1165726222/hyundai-kia-recall-fire-risk-park-outside

BMW recalls plug-in hybrid models due to fire risk

BMW is recalling 3,000 plug-in hybrid models in the UK due to battery fire concerns.

www.fleetnews.co.uk

Ford Recalls More Than 500,000 Cars Over Fire Risk

This comes after Tesla issued a 322,000 vehicle recall earlier this week.

www.cnet.com

Volvo recalling 500,000 cars worldwide over faulty engine component amid fire risk fears

Swedish car manufacturer Volvo is recalling vehicles across the world, including around 70,000 in the UK, due to fire risk fears.

news.sky.com

Subaru recalls more than 270K SUVs due to fire risk

The company is advising owners of some SUVs to park them outside, away from garages or other structures, and not to leave the vehicles unattended with the engine running.

abc7chicago.com

 

[andyinluton]

Aren’t a few ice car fires also started on purpose? Used to be a thing - rob car and torch it!

46% of car fires are deliberate!

 

[pjm-84]

For the Tesla bit

Tesla Recalls 4 Million Since January 2022–Here’s How That Compares To Other Automakers

More than 80% of Tesla’s recalls have happened in the last year.

www.forbes.com

 

[pjm-84]

The vast amount (99%) of the cars Tesla has recalled since January 2022 were fixed using a software update that didn’t require customers to go to a dealership or replace parts. Fiat-Chrysler, Kia, Hyundai, Volkswagen and BMW had no software fixes. Ford, Nissan, General Motors and Mercedes-Benz fixed 1%, 2%, 32% and17%, respectively, of their recalled cars with software updates.

 

[Corradobrit]

Environmental catastrophe averted.

 

[Corradobrit]

Fremantle Highway: Disaster averted as burnt car carrier reaches port

The crippled Fremantle Highway is towed into Eemshaven after fire ravaged the ship for a week.

www.bbc.com

 

[andyinluton]

After reading just part of that document,car parks will need massive infrastructure upgrades . On top of fitting charging cables and stations,they will need structural improvements , thermal monitoring, better fire suppression systems and extraction. They are going to become very expensive indeed or EVs will need banning to outside only. Airport parking is bad enough already. Wait until we start paying for this load of crap to be fitted.

Just to revive this thread one of the new multi-storey car parks at Luton Airport is currently testing its stability during a major fire, it’s about 4 miles & the other side of a rather large hill from ours but there’s a real orange glow in the sky.
No casualties but the airport is shut & a lot of people will have lost their cars.

 

[Kernowboy]

Just to revive this thread one of the new multi-storey car parks at Luton Airport is currently testing its stability during a major fire, it’s about 4 miles & the other side of a rather large hill from ours but there’s a real orange glow in the sky.
No casualties but the airport is shut & a lot of people will have lost their cars.

Failed the stability test according to the mirror.

Luton Airport fire sees car park 'collapse' as vehicles exploding amid flames

Fire has broken out at the top floor of the airport's short stay multi-storey car park as eyewitnesses describe 'scary scenes' with the building 'exploding in flames'

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[andyinluton]

Failed the stability test according to the mirror.

Yep it was 3 or 4 storeys high yesterday when I picked up my daughter, now flat down to ground level. Going to be a major logistical problem as the ground floor is the drop off zone. Although that does mean the ground floor will have been empty of cars.

 

[andyinluton]

This certainly raises some questions about modern carpark design.

It was new carpark
The airports own fire & rescue service are within a few hundred meters of it
The Stopsley fire station is a mile away
The Luton fire station is only a couple of miles away
The fire brigade got there when there was only one car alight
There is good fire engine access to all sides of the carpark & at a max of four floors its low.
This mornings report is that the car park has collapsed & over 1200 cars are burnt out.

It really does make you wonder what would happen if that was one of the high rise town centre car parks, they are built under, around and on top of the shopping centre with difficult access for fire fighting.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

This certainly raises some questions about modern carpark design.

It was new carpark
The airports own fire & rescue service are within a few hundred meters of it
The Stopsley fire station is a mile away
The Luton fire station is only a couple of miles away
The fire brigade got there when there was only one car alight
There is good fire engine access to all sides of the carpark & at a max of four floors its low.
This mornings report is that the car park has collapsed & over 1200 cars are burnt out.

It really does make you wonder what would happen if that was one of the high rise town centre car parks, they are built under, around and on top of the shopping centre with difficult access for fire fighting.

If it was an EV fire, which is quite likely, then the fire brigade would have been unable to extinguish it. I read somewhere that apparently with a lithium battery fire all they can try and do is cool it, they can’t put it out.

 

[Corradobrit]

Given the intensity and speed at which it spread my bet is on a Li battery failure. I'm guessing there is no sprinkler system installed in such an open air design. That wouldn't help extinguish a Li fire but would have extinguished a different source of ignition.
Occurrences like this are going to be be increasingly prevalent and is going to be a huge headache anywhere Li battery containing vehicles are stored.
I see a mandate for LiFePO4 battery tech in vehicles purely on safety grounds.

 

[flying banana]

cctv will show which car started the fire. i wonder too if it was an ev suffering thermal runaway.or maybe someone left the cooker on in a camper. shocking to see that the building collapsed.

 

[larrylamb]

cctv will show which car started the fire. i wonder too if it was an ev suffering thermal runaway.or maybe someone left the cooker on in a camper. shocking to see that the building collapsed.

It will be devastating for EV reputation if it is an EV. If however it's an ICE fire it will dispel a lot of the negativity and rumours regarding EV being unsafe.

 

[flying banana]

It will be devastating for EV reputation if it is an EV. If however it's an ICE fire it will dispel a lot of the negativity and rumours regarding EV being unsafe.

not really,if it was an ice fire, it doesn't change anything regarding ev fires. how about this scenario. an ice fire starts next to an ev. once the ev is alight the fire brigade is stuffed.