Goodbye Brussels, hello Burnley.

[Ambler]

We have 2 years to sort it all out. 2 years after we invoke article 50.
Why the clamour for a rush?

 

[TomC]

I have always believed throughout life 'Change is opportunity' if you choose it to be. On the fundamentals the UK has an incredible pool of talent to draw on and above all this will be the factor in GB pulling through short term turbulence, DESPITE the politicians. Reading some of the posts on here couldn't help but thinking of the old change management curve. You may want to plot yourself on it. Onwards and upwards.

 

[Bramco]

Taken from a Reuters article...

'Johnson also said he did not detect "any real appetite" for another Scottish independence referendum, despite the country's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon saying it was highly likely if it is the best option to keep Scotland in the bloc.'

I guess by didn't detect any real appetite means he's polled his cronies...

Beggars belief the statements our politicians seem able to make at times. No wonder people are sick to death with their self serving ways.

 

[leightonjthomas]

Sorry but I am not concerned with whether the poster has voted in or out, that is his democratic decision. What I do object to is his position of not accepting the Democratic decision of the people of the United Kingdom because it is contrary to his own view. I doubt if he would be objecting if the country had voted with the same margin as the Welsh Assembly Referendum to stay in the EU .
Yes, I am intolerant to those who refuse to accept the principal of the Democratic Process.
I don't care if he voted In, Out or for Shake it All About. He was able to have his say, as was I. The count has been made, the result is known and now we move on to the future. That's Life. Live it.
If you want to change the rules for the next time then vote for a MP who agrees with you.
We all knew what the voting rules were when the Referendum was announced but the Remain group were so sure they would prevail they didn't insist on any rule change and now their arrogance has come home to bite them where it hurts, in their pocket.
We are Europeans but do not wish to be ruled by Europe and neither do a large percentage of the population of many member countries of the EU, or so it would seem, but they have yet to be given a choice.

Welshgas - it must be a wonderful feeling to know that you are always right and to look down on others who disagree but, on this occasion, you are wrong. In none of my posts have I suggested that I "refuse to accept the principal (sic) of the democratic system". Having voted Labour in the South of England for most of my life I am well-used to finishing on the "losing side" and I have always totally accepted the democratic principles of our great country. I accept 100% the result of the referendum and I respect the views of those who voted to leave. I do not for one minute think that they are ignorant or racist. However, that does not stop me feeling deeply upset because I, and presumably a few million other British people, believe sincerely that many millions of ordinary people will be worse off as a result. Of course we have to live with it and get on with it and I just hope that, from the current farcical turmoil of the two major parties, some genuine leaders will emerge to manage the change.
I'm pleased you have at least recognised yourself as being "intolerant"; perhaps you might consider adding adjectives such as patronising and condescending to your self-analysis. We mere mortals can only dream what it must be like to be so perfect.

 

[Norfolk Jim]

Hmmmmmm......having just read (yes I know i'm sad) most of these posts there seems to be one comment missing - what on earth would everyone be saying if the 'Remain' campaign had won the vote to stay in???

As a nation we are never going to be happy with the results be it IN or OUT but what we all have to do is now pull together to try and make Britain Great again (with or without Scotland).

I don't have a Cali; I simply could not afford one so have next best thing a Leisuredrive T5. I don't holiday in the EU (across the water as yes we are still in it at the moment) as I feel we have such a wonderful diverse country of our own whether England, Wales, Scotland or Ireland. We have for the past 5 years holiday'd in Scotland and met lots of nice people and we still intend to do that.

We have some of the best scientists and researchers in the world so everyone will still want to tap into those.

As already said people have had a long time since this was announced to do their very own investigations into the positives and negatives of staying in the EU. When we originally joined we only knew about it via tv and the papers - no computers, tablets, smartphones or internet (yet somehow we put man on the moon?? - sorry random comment) so it was far far harder then to arrive at really decisions. When we joined the EEC it was only western Europe as we knew it but slowly along the path more and more countries have crept in to expand something which was quite small and comfortable (to a point) into some huge multilingual super state controlled by someone we have no control over that bleeds us dry when any country fails - yes one thing I did find out was the UK have often contributed far in excess of what some other members have to bail out the likes of Greece...................

I work in architecture and find the comment about 'House prices will drop...' rather bizarre'. The only people we can see who will be worried about this will be the stinking rich worried they won't make as much selling their over priced homes. Surely this will mean more youngsters getting the chance to buy their own homes at long last and shrinking the gap between north and south. When away in Scotland recently I looked at house prices in the Great Glen area very popular and quite up market with good access to major centres. New 3 bed detached house on about half an acre was £180k. That same property in mid-norfolk where I live £325k. I know where I'd rather live.

Yes it is going to be hard; could be very hard but if the bickering and self-pity stopped perhaps we may be able to make our country great again. I was borne in the UK of Welsh ancestry and am proud to be British whatever decision was made.

 

[Ambler]

Well said Jim.
As F. Roosevelt said, "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

 

[motacyclist]

I have just managed to rescue a small lamb and all thing being equal thought it best to return "him" to a field full of "his" own kind.

Thanks to Boris & friends, even the poor little lambs are being repatriated

 

[fred]

I'll ask again, to any of the 52% who voted for Brexit:

What is your plan for the UK now that it is leaving the EU?

Getting rid of the likes of you.:thefinger

I voted out in the hope you would leave the UK, my work is done.

Welshgas you have NO business lecturing others on what democracy is. This ^ is not democracy, it's fascism. It's what the nazis did to the Jews in the 30s (I have lived in Munich, the birthplace of European fascism), and it's also what happened to my whole family in 72 when they fled a populist, fascist dictator in Uganda (a former British colony). They fled to the four corners of the world as refugees and I was born in the UK. Shame on you for your plan to get me to leave MY country. Why? And who is next in line for your nutjob ideology?

It disgusts me that some brexiteers are attempting to redefine democracy as a battle with a winner and a loser, and through the lens of "when one side wins, the other loses". Democracy is when we as a community make choices that benefit us all and protect the vulnerable.

 

[T6 CFO]

These are some of my thoughts and hopes. You may agree with all of it, some of it or none of it.

The best course of action was always to reform the EU from within.
That unfortunately proved impossible due to the failure within the EU to recognise and deal with issues raised by having a 2 speed Europe. Monetary Union with the introduction of the Euro could not work without complete Political Union which we for one did not want.
For many years there has been discontent with the EU primarily from within the Conservative Party. With the rise of UKIP the conservatives grip on power was threatened and as a result they chose to promise the people a referendum on the issue to maintain power and prevent an even greater flood of their core to UKIP. This has turned out to be an error as the referendum has been used as a conduit for any element of society with resentment of the elite and political classes.

Free movement within the eurozone is a key element but unfortunately this led to the exodus of the able and motivated from the poorer areas of the eurozone to the richer ones. You cannot lump all this movement together and the subject was never debated properly during the referendum. Some of the movement is to fill vacancies and compete on an equal basis but much of it and the element that caused anger was to provide cheap labour, increase profits for companies by paying low wages and displace workers in the host country. It is also important to remember that this is not free movement by that I mean choice, many of these people had no choice they are economic migrants and the uncontrolled movement not only causes disquiet but rips the lifeblood of the countries they leave. You have a situation where young motivated educated people are being used as fodder by the richer counties to which they migrate. They are as much victims as those they displace if not more so. The remain side failed to recognise that this was an issue and chose to label anyone who questioned the policy as racist. It is ironic that the only senior party member who did was Jeremy Corbin who is now under attack for being half hearted, I would prefer to say he was more honest. I saw an interview with him where he articulated his concerns and gave possible remedies. The headlines the following day purely stated that "Corbin admits remaining cannot prevent uncontrolled immigration"

Instead of choosing to recognise legitimate concerns and debate ways in which they be addressed they over played there strongest card, financial implications and the uncertainty. All this did was to frighten people already on the remain side and make little difference to those who felt they were not included in this.

There was never going to be any doubt that this was going to be one of the most bitterly fought contests in our lifetimes. Clearly there were people on the extremes who were never going to be shaken from their path and these people were allowed by the opposing camps and the media to dictate the direction of the debate. This resulted in ridiculous figures appearing on the sides of buses, queues of migrants on posters on one side and on the other a never ending torrent of fear which was not going to dissuade disaffected out voters, or, and I would put myself in this camp, confirmed that the elite were never going to listen and were only seeking to protect their own positions. If the remain camp had recognised the issues I firmly believe the result would have been different.

A thoroughly divisive referendum has now resulted in an out vote. I have to admit that I believed that remain would squeak over the line as the status quo would be maintained and fear and uncertainty would prevail, in hindsight it was obvious that the disaffected out voters would not be diverted.



in the immediate aftermath many remain voters have acted fairly predictably as the losing side often does. There are no shortage of sour politicians quite happy to fuel this fire spurred on by large sections of the media. Some are now recognising that the middle ground in the debate was lost to the extremes, a bit late now and they should have spoken up earlier instead of being played like Punch and Judy figures in the debates. I can usually comprehend the media making up stories and stirring up a fight to sell their wares but at a time like this we hardly need to be poking the wasps nest. It is a shame that many of the debates and question sessions are led by the likes of Andrew Neil, shallow and only interested in scoring points. Hopefully with the advent of new media these mainstream sound bite led discussions will be increasingly sidelined in favour of more intelligent constructive debate.

To hammer home my point about the shockingly divisive rhetoric some are now seeking to gain a platform by claiming to represent immigrants in a most patronising way and lately the young voter. Yet more labels, yes headline polling figures suggest a large majority voted remain but there are reasons for this and in any case everyone's vote counted. Let's look at the extremes again, yes there will be young voters who are well informed and took the time to consider their vote but there will be large numbers who have no idea what it is like beyond the comfort of their own lives. It is damn right dangerous to use these groups for your own political ends. Yes many are angry but so am I.

So much of this was a protest against the establishment and the elites be they on the right or the left.
As the same elites exist in the EU they were never going to change and the sabre rattling is now in full flow.
Early indications are that Angela Merkel is urging a more tolerant and patient approach to a serious situation for all of us.
Our best hope is that the moderates now hold sway and work together for the good of all and then call a general election. The party that works the hardest towards uniting a divided country will then be rewarded by the electorate.
Perhaps we will even end up with a coalition and we can begin reforming our electoral system starting with the way the parties are funded. It is time to separate Labour from the Unions and the Conservatives from business.

As I post this the Labour Party is in full meltdown. Personally I hope Corbyn survives. I may not like all his politics but I would rather that the victory in the end and the formation of a new political system is led by someone with some principle and compassion rather than perceived as a victory for the right.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Neilgbj]

Sorry but I am not concerned with whether the poster has voted in or out, that is his democratic decision. What I do object to is his position of not accepting the Democratic decision of the people of the United Kingdom because it is contrary to his own view. I doubt if he would be objecting if the country had voted with the same margin as the Welsh Assembly Referendum to stay in the EU .
Yes, I am intolerant to those who refuse to accept the principal of the Democratic Process.
I don't care if he voted In, Out or for Shake it All About. He was able to have his say, as was I. The count has been made, the result is known and now we move on to the future. That's Life. Live it.
If you want to change the rules for the next time then vote for a MP who agrees with you.
We all knew what the voting rules were when the Referendum was announced but the Remain group were so sure they would prevail they didn't insist on any rule change and now their arrogance has come home to bite them where it hurts, in their pocket.
We are Europeans but do not wish to be ruled by Europe and neither do a large percentage of the population of many member countries of the EU, or so it would seem, but they have yet to be given a choice.

As ever you miss my point, but there we go.....#timetomoveon

 

[motacyclist]

These are some of my thoughts and hopes. You may agree with all of it, some of it or none of it.

The best course of action was always to reform the EU from within.
That unfortunately proved impossible due to the failure within the EU to recognise and deal with issues raised by having a 2 speed Europe. Monetary Union with the introduction of the Euro could not work without complete Political Union which we for one did not want.
For many years there has been discontent with the EU primarily from within the Conservative Party. With the rise of UKIP the conservatives grip on power was threatened and as a result they chose to promise the people a referendum on the issue to maintain power and prevent an even greater flood of their core to UKIP. This has turned out to be an error as the referendum has been used as a conduit for any element of society with resentment of the elite and political classes.

Free movement within the eurozone is a key element but unfortunately this led to the exodus of the able and motivated from the poorer areas of the eurozone to the richer ones. You cannot lump all this movement together and the subject was never debated properly during the referendum. Some of the movement is to fill vacancies and compete on an equal basis but much of it and the element that caused anger was to provide cheap labour, increase profits for companies by paying low wages and displace workers in the host country. It is also important to remember that this is not free movement by that I mean choice, many of these people had no choice they are economic migrants and the uncontrolled movement not only causes disquiet but rips the lifeblood of the countries they leave. You have a situation where young motivated educated people are being used as fodder by the richer counties to which they migrate. They are as much victims as those they displace if not more so. The remain side failed to recognise that this was an issue and chose to label anyone who questioned the policy as racist. It is ironic that the only senior party member who did was Jeremy Corbin who is now under attack for being half hearted, I would prefer to say he was more honest. I saw an interview with him where he articulated his concerns and gave possible remedies. The headlines the following day purely stated that "Corbin admits remaining cannot prevent uncontrolled immigration"

Instead of choosing to recognise legitimate concerns and debate ways in which they be addressed they over played there strongest card, financial implications and the uncertainty. All this did was to frighten people already on the remain side and make little difference to those who felt they were not included in this.

There was never going to be any doubt that this was going to be one of the most bitterly fought contests in our lifetimes. Clearly there were people on the extremes who were never going to be shaken from their path and these people were allowed by the opposing camps and the media to dictate the direction of the debate. This resulted in ridiculous figures appearing on the sides of buses, queues of migrants on posters on one side and on the other a never ending torrent of fear which was not going to dissuade disaffected out voters, or, and I would put myself in this camp, confirmed that the elite were never going to listen and were only seeking to protect their own positions. If the remain camp had recognised the issues I firmly believe the result would have been different.

A thoroughly divisive referendum has now resulted in an out vote. I have to admit that I believed that remain would squeak over the line as the status quo would be maintained and fear and uncertainty would prevail, in hindsight it was obvious that the disaffected out voters would not be diverted.



in the immediate aftermath many remain voters have acted fairly predictably as the losing side often does. There are no shortage of sour politicians quite happy to fuel this fire spurred on by large sections of the media. Some are now recognising that the middle ground in the debate was lost to the extremes, a bit late now and they should have spoken up earlier instead of being played like Punch and Judy figures in the debates. I can usually comprehend the media making up stories and stirring up a fight to sell their wares but at a time like this we hardly need to be poking the wasps nest. It is a shame that many of the debates and question sessions are led by the likes of Andrew Neil, shallow and only interested in scoring points. Hopefully with the advent of new media these mainstream sound bite led discussions will be increasingly sidelined in favour of more intelligent constructive debate.

To hammer home my point about the shockingly divisive rhetoric some are now seeking to gain a platform by claiming to represent immigrants in a most patronising way and lately the young voter. Yet more labels, yes headline polling figures suggest a large majority voted remain but there are reasons for this and in any case everyone's vote counted. Let's look at the extremes again, yes there will be young voters who are well informed and took the time to consider their vote but there will be large numbers who have no idea what it is like beyond the comfort of their own lives. It is damn right dangerous to use these groups for your own political ends. Yes many are angry but so am I.

So much of this was a protest against the establishment and the elites be they on the right or the left.
As the same elites exist in the EU they were never going to change and the sabre rattling is now in full flow.
Early indications are that Angela Merkel is urging a more tolerant and patient approach to a serious situation for all of us.
Our best hope is that the moderates now hold sway and work together for the good of all and then call a general election. The party that works the hardest towards uniting a divided country will then be rewarded by the electorate.
Perhaps we will even end up with a coalition and we can begin reforming our electoral system starting with the way the parties are funded. It is time to separate Labour from the Unions and the Conservatives from business.

As I post this the Labour Party is in full meltdown. Personally I hope Corbyn survives. I may not like all his politics but I would rather that the victory in the end and the formation of a new political system is led by someone with some principle and compassion rather than perceived as a victory for the right.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Excellent writing, well put

 

[fred]

Mike thanks for a heartfelt, compassionate and balanced contribution. I really side with you on everything you've said, especially moderation and the UK public coming together. Unfortunately there's a much more significant rift opened up in our society which is NOT around the 2 speed economies of London vs. the rural provinces (sorry to paraphrase you inelegantly) and I believe this is the real cause of the result. It is excellently put in this piece of research http://www.fabians.org.uk/brexit-voters-not-the-left-behind/. The challenge for the UK is that it now has to decide not what it wants to do, but who it is; what are the "British Values" of post referendum UK?

On your second point. In my opinion it is very unlikely that the UK will leave the EU, or even invoke article 50. There are significant political challenges as we no doubt know but there is also a strong argument that to do so would be counter-democratic. Here's the rationale (I have poached this from another piece that I didn't write but it serves to explain better than I could):

"Referendums are extra-parliamentary measures that should be rarely called upon to perform an advisory role to the Government. They are opinion polls used to guide the Government, not force it to comply.

We make decisions on 'democracy' and the levels of democracy that we accept for different things.
We accept a simple majority for simple things. Like 52:48 referendums which are not legally-binding and can easily be ignored (see French and Netherlands referenda 2005). That doesn't mean the vote isn't completely valid. It is. It's just that it has absolutely no legal force. Democratic force, yes, but only framed in the terms of reference as an advisory opinion poll. No more, no less.

The problems arise when people confuse this level of democratic intention with the level of democratic intention required for legal effect. If you wish to claim the referendum should be binding, you must also acknowledge the goalposts have moved and a greater standard of proof is required. With the rise in severity, a rise in standard is also deemed essential. Pop Idol, BGT, Bake Off, Referendum. Simple majority wins. More serious issues: greater % needed. Most serious issues- eg Death Penalty, unanimous vote required.

Making the referendum legally-binding means you need a democratic intention to match. Generally speaking, enshrined in much case law, statute and international treaty, any legal motion which effects constitutional change must generally seek to attain a 2/3 majority (please note- as a very very loose guide) to pass. The most relevant comparisons we could make here is when other Commonwealth nations (India, Australia, etc) have voted in the past to amend constitution they have required a supermajority to make constitutional changes. 2/3rd majority is one such common standard- as those voting 'for' are twice as big as those 'against'. (Further stuff on supermajorities here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermajority)

This isn't a 'new' rule. It isn't changing the goalposts. It has been this way, in international law, for decades. It wasn't mentioned during the Brexit campaigns because the referendum is not a legal motion, and is not subject to this standard. If you try to claim the referendum is enforceable, though, well you play by the law (and democracy's) rules. It is unconscionable that just under 50% of the country be bound by the other 50. Which is why these standards exist. They're not arbitrary. They're not sour grapes. They are democracy in action, assuring the greater good for all by not remorselessly enslaving a disenfranchised minority to very serious repercussions without corresponding serious intention. 50% of the population can't see the point of women's toilets- so let's get ride of them, hey? Perfectly democratic. But also undemocratic. Different levels apply".

I know this will have many out voters up in arms but it is why a simple 52:48 majority doesn't necessarily mean there is a "clear out vote" or that the UK will now leave the EU.

 

[aileron346]

Yes...agree with this. Majoritarianism it's called and was a well known term in Northern Ireland in the troubles.

One little thing I would add is that there's some great discussion on here. I do find Cali owners quite informed on this stuff and the common factor of being Cali owners does seem to moderate things a little keeping it fairly friendly.
A tiny thing I would say though is that you cannot quell reasonable reaction and discussion. So long as it's polite and reasonable, I don't see any point in the 'stop discussing it' points. Many will not be interested and of course don't have to follow the threads.
But to others this is the biggest political event to happen in their lifetimes and is of momentous importance to their families. I reckon it will be discussed for ages and so it should be.
There will always be time to get back to the weather but for now this is breathtaking and clearly a moment in history.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[WelshGas]

Welshgas - it must be a wonderful feeling to know that you are always right and to look down on others who disagree but, on this occasion, you are wrong. In none of my posts have I suggested that I "refuse to accept the principal (sic) of the democratic system". Having voted Labour in the South of England for most of my life I am well-used to finishing on the "losing side" and I have always totally accepted the democratic principles of our great country. I accept 100% the result of the referendum and I respect the views of those who voted to leave. I do not for one minute think that they are ignorant or racist. However, that does not stop me feeling deeply upset because I, and presumably a few million other British people, believe sincerely that many millions of ordinary people will be worse off as a result. Of course we have to live with it and get on with it and I just hope that, from the current farcical turmoil of the two major parties, some genuine leaders will emerge to manage the change.
I'm pleased you have at least recognised yourself as being "intolerant"; perhaps you might consider adding adjectives such as patronising and condescending to your self-analysis. We mere mortals can only dream what it must be like to be so perfect.

No, I'll leave those adjectives to you, for your own use.

At least I'm not Ashamed of my country for taking a Democratic Decision that I don't agree with.

 

[leightonjthomas]

No, I'll leave those adjectives to you, for your own use.

At least I'm not Ashamed of my country for taking a Democratic Decision that I don't agree with.

To sum up I do accept the decision, I will not, as you suggest, be emigrating, I will get over it and I will very soon regain my pride in my country. I hope you get better soon too!

 

[WelshGas]

Welshgas you have NO business lecturing others on what democracy is. This ^ is not democracy, it's fascism. It's what the nazis did to the Jews in the 30s (I have lived in Munich, the birthplace of European fascism), and it's also what happened to my whole family in 72 when they fled a populist, fascist dictator in Uganda (a former British colony). They fled to the four corners of the world as refugees and I was born in the UK. Shame on you for your plan to get me to leave MY country. Why? And who is next in line for your nutjob ideology?

It disgusts me that some brexiteers are attempting to redefine democracy as a battle with a winner and a loser, and through the lens of "when one side wins, the other loses". Democracy is when we as a community make choices that benefit us all and protect the vulnerable.

A reply to be expected. Please quote the line where I stated you SHOULD leave the UK?
All I stated was that the poster could accept the decision or emigrate to an EU country.
So the UK accepted your family prior to us voting to join the Common Market? so I presume we were a Fascist State then as well?
I have never suggested that anyone should leave the UK for any reason than they cannot abide by the decision made by the people of the UK.
You can make of that as you wish, and please do something about the chip on your shoulder.

 

[Digger]

Maybe time for moderators to step in. I didn't think personal attacks were allowed.

 

[T6 CFO]

Yellow cards I reckon Digger


Mike

 

[WelshGas]

You really are a horrible little man aren't you?

No, I'm Welsh , proud of being Welsh and a member of the United Kingdom and still living in Wales having done my bit for Queen and Country.

 

[leightonjthomas]

I accept my yellow card and apologise for allowing my emotions to get the better of me! Off to France tomorrow to calm down for a couple of weeks. Will proudly display my GB badge and my Welsh number plate and hope for the best!

 

[GrannyJen]

If I removed all the personal insults, direct and implied, this thread would be slimmer than my chances of winning an olympic figure skating medal.

I would suggest to the main protagonists to take time out, and I think a line can now be drawn, but given the nature of the discussion and the value of many of the comments it would be a shame to start exercising a hatchet, although one comment is being removed.

To both WG and LJ, congratulations on a stunning Welsh Euro competition and my commiserations to Northern Ireland fans.

 

[Amarillo]

what on earth would everyone be saying if the 'Remain' campaign had won the vote to stay in

Much less as we would have a more certain future.

This is a ridiculous foreseeable mess, brought about by a gamble by David Cameron, and caused by the ineffectual Jeremy Corbyn.

If David Cameron wanted to gamble our futures in a referendum, he should have insisted that only a double majority would trigger implementation of Article 50: a majority of voters for leave, and a majority of the countries which make up the UK voting for leave. Gibraltar, Scotland and Northern Ireland all voted to remain, while only England and Wales voted to leave, i.e. a minority of countries are imposing their will on Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar against their express wishes.

 

[Velma's Dad]

If you want to change the rules for the next time then vote for a MP who agrees with you.

That's fine, provided I think that either a Conservative or a Labour MP might represent my priorities. But otherwise I can forget it, because no other party has a chance of being elected in sufficient numbers to count, due to our rotten, rigged electoral system.

People who feel hopelessly unrepresented will end up lashing out. This time they had a safety valve, which was to give the Con-Lab duopoly the finger via a referendum. Next time they might be more direct about it.

 

[T6 CFO]

Much less as we would have a more certain future.

This is a ridiculous foreseeable mess, brought about by a gamble by David Cameron, and caused by the ineffectual Jeremy Corbyn.

If David Cameron wanted to gamble our futures in a referendum, he should have insisted that only a double majority would trigger implementation of Article 50: a majority of voters for leave, and a majority of the countries which make up the UK voting for leave. Gibraltar, Scotland and Northern Ireland all voted to remain, while only England and Wales voted to leave, i.e. a minority of countries are imposing their will on Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar against their express wishes.

Only a small point but I believe the people of Gibraltar would like to remain as a Sovereign Territory and if this is so that they should abide by the democratic decision of the United Kingdom as a whole. They are not a country. The positions of Scotland and Northern Ireland in particular are more complex but again they are part of the United Kingdom. I'm sure there will be much debate on this. At the moment this is a secondary issue for me. I'm sure not for some
I have a great deal of sympathy with the argument that their should have been a significant support for such massive change but it is a bit late now to change the rules when it is was clear throughout that just 1 vote in either direction was enough.
If we had such a rule, say 60% majority then the result we had would have meant that we remain but would have put considerable pressure on reform. Problem is that this is all theoretical as we didn't.
As for ignoring the vote If we had a consensus from all sides there would be a chance. You are not going to get this from UKIP who are probably largely responsible for mobilising the out vote.

 

[briwy]

I'd love to see the French have a referendum. Can you imagine, makes our protests look childs play. Whatever the result the ports would be blockaded, motorways would be blocked with burning tyres, farmers would be dumping crap everywhere and the Bastille would be stormed.