Goodbye Brussels, hello Burnley.

[2into1]

I read an article this morning (linked below) that looks at this from the perspective of "those who knowingly risked worsening their (precarious) economic situation because they wanted to have some power over their lives and the world they live in".
You might not get chauffeured around London like the Author, but if you've done well enough to own a Cali, you should be able to relate.
http://seanrobinson.tumblr.com/post/146451763105/rich-educated-london-based-friends-you-are-the

 

[WelshGas]

Thanks. You've just explained exactly why, at this moment, I feel ashamed to be British, or Welsh. In time I will, no doubt, become proud again and, despite being a fellow countryman, thank God I do not share your selfish, arrogant conceited values.

Pot calling the kettle black. Democracy is hell when the vote goes against you.
You either believe in the Democratic process and accept the decision or you don't.
You then have 2 options. Work to change the Democratic process to meet your viewpoint etc: or emigrate. Winging that the majority wouldn't vote my way, and that because the majority didn't I am ashamed of my country, is, in my view the absolute height of arrogance and conceit + a big dose of selfishness.
The Democratic process means accepting the view of the majority no matter the outcome. That's our system, good or bad, and you should have the good grace to live with it.
Now, if you Disagree with the first past the post system, or in the case of a Referendum , 50% + 1 system, then by all means strive to get it changed.
I voted against the formation of the Welsh Assembly , which was passed with a miniscule majority. However, I accepted the result. I wasn't ashamed of my country or of being Welsh.
YOU, are the one who is selfish, arrogant and conceited in thinking that ONLY YOUR VIEW is the correct one.

 

[GrannyJen]

Can we please avoid making personal attacks on others.

As an historian I am steeped in the knowledge of how much blood has soaked into European soil just so we can have the freedom expressed through the ballot box of last Thursday. Democracy is a far too precious commodity to feel aggrieved about when it goes against you. Just be grateful it has gone against you for not to have it at all would be a most dreadful thing.

 

[aileron346]

But Welshgas 'you either believe in the democratic process or not'.... Yes, to a point. But I think there are a number of factors in the EU vote that complicate that view. Blatant untruths in the campaign (the £350 million a week for the NHS?). The generational split seriously unnerves me. A lot of people appear to have thought that expressing a view would not necessarily lead to a withdrawal even if there was a majority. Decades of tabloid bent cucumber stories - I know many people who have fallen for that kind of stuff. There's a lot of anger out there at this result. In a sense the whole thing needed a bit more 'duty of care' unless you believe that politicians and newspapers should be exempt from that. I suspect this will run and run... So technically yes about democracy, but should results be valid if official campaigns have lied blatantly?


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[leightonjthomas]

Thank you. That is an excellent, thought-provoking article, almost all of which I agree with. I do not deny democracy - I totally accept the decision - and I certainly do not deride or patronise the working people who voted to leave. I am a labour-voting son of a Port Talbot steelworker and I once worked there myself. My feelings of despair are because I genuinely believe that big business, as always, will survive, one way or the other, but that the biggest losers will be the ordinary working people, even though a majority of them voted to leave. I honestly hope that I am wrong and that everything will be ok but I think it will be a long road back. Incidentally, every young person I have spoken to, including my three sons, did not fail to vote - they voted to remain - and I do think that there will be hurt and anger for some time to come from the younger generation - they are not all apathetic and self-centred.

 

[leightonjthomas]

Pot calling the kettle black. Democracy is hell when the vote goes against you.
You either believe in the Democratic process and accept the decision or you don't.
You then have 2 options. Work to change the Democratic process to meet your viewpoint etc: or emigrate. Winging that the majority wouldn't vote my way, and that because the majority didn't I am ashamed of my country, is, in my view the absolute height of arrogance and conceit + a big dose of selfishness.
The Democratic process means accepting the view of the majority no matter the outcome. That's our system, good or bad, and you should have the good grace to live with it.
Now, if you Disagree with the first past the post system, or in the case of a Referendum , 50% + 1 system, then by all means strive to get it changed.
I voted against the formation of the Welsh Assembly , which was passed with a miniscule majority. However, I accepted the result. I wasn't ashamed of my country or of being Welsh.
YOU, are the one who is selfish, arrogant and conceited in thinking that ONLY YOUR VIEW is the correct one.
View attachment 14715

Thanks again Welshgas for helping to educate me and explain why, even though I accept the democratic result, I have no right to feel upset unless I am prepared to emigrate. Your depth of arrogance is truly astounding and I now realise why so many others have been upset by your self-righteousness in the past.

 

[larrylamb]

Just another day of England screwing us over.

Thanks to the English majority supporting a minority

Don't forget the Welsh, you can't blame us for everything.

 

[Keith Smith]

I don't want spread contentiousness and this is a genuine question, I'm wondering what the keen outers think will happen now? What do they think the government will do and what sort of timeline will they follow?

 

[WelshGas]

But Welshgas 'you either believe in the democratic process or not'.... Yes, to a point. But I think there are a number of factors in the EU vote that complicate that view. Blatant untruths in the campaign (the £350 million a week for the NHS?). The generational split seriously unnerves me. A lot of people appear to have thought that expressing a view would not necessarily lead to a withdrawal even if there was a majority. Decades of tabloid bent cucumber stories - I know many people who have fallen for that kind of stuff. There's a lot of anger out there at this result. In a sense the whole thing needed a bit more 'duty of care' unless you believe that politicians and newspapers should be exempt from that. I suspect this will run and run... So technically yes about democracy, but should results be valid if official campaigns have lied blatantly?


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I totally agree lies and untruths came from both sides and to be totally honest I don't think it would have mattered if they had been totally honest. No one knows what will be the ultimate effect of staying or leaving, but as that article said, part of the electorate had added something to the Referendum question.
Stay and more of the same.
Leave and get back some control.

There were areas in Wales that had received massive EU grants for infrastructure improvements, billions of Euros, yet they stil voted overwhelmingly LEAVE. They were prepared to risk a lot , young and old alike. They aren't stupid . They may not have the intellectual education of some but they do have Common Sense and a sense of Right and Wrong and may not use language and terms that those in charge are comfortable with, but they have a canny nose for something that isn't right or correct and I agree with them and believe that they will be proven right in time. They'll roll their sleeves up and do their bit. Will everyone else do the same, the politicians, bankers, financial experts etc: We'll see.

 

[aileron346]

Respect your view but don't think similarly. Wales will be an interesting test because the most deprived areas of Wales have had very substantial EU support which will now be at risk. But people in these areas still voted leave and will now get an even more English-centred government. What's interesting from here in England is how the Scots and Welsh voted very differently... Both traditionally neglected by Conservative governments and, I think, both with eloquent influential national politicians. Probably Wales slightly less independence minded whereas Scotland clearly sees a future in the EU as an independent nation. Just interesting to see.


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[WelshGas]

Thanks again Welshgas for helping to educate me and explain why, even though I accept the democratic result, I have no right to feel upset unless I am prepared to emigrate. Your depth of arrogance is truly astounding and I now realise why so many others have been upset by your self-righteousness in the past.

True, I may be arrogant and self-righteous but I am prepared to accept a Democratic Decision. On this occasion one I agree with but in the past some I disagreed with. If I was not prepared to do that I would campaign to change the voting system or emigrate.
Yes, I am Arrogant and Self-righteous beyond belief in believing that there are 2 sides to an argument, 2 conflicting views and when there is a vote and I'm on the loosing side, big enough to accept the result of the majority.

 

[Geezso]

My other (pip


I just can't wait to climb into a Jaguar XK pop top

From India lol

 

[WelshGas]

From India lol

Might be built without DPF, Adblue, ECU and 6L V12 with Carbs.

 

[Digger]

This is getting ridiculous. There was a vote against the EU / EC not against our European friends. The vote should not involve immigration or trade but the arrogance of the elite who despise democracy at national level. The intent of a Federal State of Europe is not just dangerous but wrong. I have spoken with friends in Germany who hope this will force Junker and his power grab to be put in his place. They also have no desire to be controlled by Brussels. This may be the saving of Europe. Disagree if you wish but respect the voters and their right to self determination. If you attack be prepared to defend. Some are not a pushover.

 

[GrannyJen]

From India lol

Gaydon and Castle Bromwich mostly.

In this age of globalisation questioning the ultimate ownership is of less importance to me than the amount of British jobs employed making the things.

 

[pjm-84]

Interesting article T4WFA. Similar thoughts had crossed our minds. I voted remain. I felt strongly about it because of the potential effects a leave vote would have on the economy. If we had TTIPs in place I would have voted leave. I fear it will hurt those who can least afford it.

We have made our bed so time to lie in it. I accept the democratic decision so what is done is done. We just need to get on with it. As for those people who voted leave but didn't think it would matter and now want to remain..............

I thought DC played a good hand. I wouldn't want to be the PM who served notice. Scotland is interesting but not unpredicted.

From my business point of view I need to give it two quarters before making an decision. If the works continues then all well and good. However the construction industry is an early indicator.

 

[briwy]

This thread appears to confirm what has happened by having a referendum on this. A complete balls up. Total lack of hard information so people have voted to suit themselves rather than what may or may not best for the UK. The country is in chaos, political parties are running round like headless chickens resigning and blaming the various leaders for the result and everyone (on here included) is still trying to score points and families and friends are at loggerheads Currency and stockmarkets are all over the place and the Scots have an excuse to further split up the nation if they choose to. Brexit people, or indeed anyone else, haven't the faintest idea about what to do. To say the country has chosen is a joke. Whichever way you voted it can hardy be called conclusive and that is what is pissing so many people off. If the result had been a largish majority then I think many more people, whilst not happy about the result, would have accepted it.
There appears to be no plan on what to do next and how things will pan out. Perhaps, and hopefully, it will work out and the country will be OK. In my opinion all this talk about pulling together is rubbish because everyone still has their own opinion/agenda and will stick to it.
Britain is not the power it was a hundred years ago and we can't send in a gunboat to sort out Johnny foreigner any more. We may be the worlds fifth biggest economy but that is based on finance and service industries which in this day and age can be operated from anywhere and you can bet that if they see they can make more profit elsewhere they'll be through the Channel Tunnel like frogs up a pump.
Anyway, the sun's been shining on our Cali today so let's hope it's good omen.
Over to you Roy.

 

[2into1]

Can I put myself forward to lead the enquiry that will no doubt follow in 10 years time, as to why there was inadequate planning for a post Brexit decision, and the falsification of the dodgy dossiers? I trust it's a well paid position with generous time off for Cali'ing.

 

[pjm-84]

I thought we had now fallen to sixth and now behind France?

Raining at Eskdale and has been for 7hrs. On the plus side I have just managed to rescue a small lamb and all thing being equal thought it best to return "him" to a field full of "his" own kind. (Apologies if he was a she)

 

[T6 CFO]

This thread appears to confirm what has happened by having a referendum on this. A complete balls up. Total lack of hard information so people have voted to suit themselves rather than what may or may not best for the UK. The country is in chaos, political parties are running round like headless chickens resigning and blaming the various leaders for the result and everyone (on here included) is still trying to score points and families and friends are at loggerheads Currency and stockmarkets are all over the place and the Scots have an excuse to further split up the nation if they choose to. Brexit people, or indeed anyone else, haven't the faintest idea about what to do. To say the country has chosen is a joke. Whichever way you voted it can hardy be called conclusive and that is what is pissing so many people off. If the result had been a largish majority then I think many more people, whilst not happy about the result, would have accepted it.
There appears to be no plan on what to do next and how things will pan out. Perhaps, and hopefully, it will work out and the country will be OK. In my opinion all this talk about pulling together is rubbish because everyone still has their own opinion/agenda and will stick to it.
Britain is not the power it was a hundred years ago and we can't send in a gunboat to sort out Johnny foreigner any more. We may be the worlds fifth biggest economy but that is based on finance and service industries which in this day and age can be operated from anywhere and you can bet that if they see they can make more profit elsewhere they'll be through the Channel Tunnel like frogs up a pump.
Anyway, the sun's been shining on our Cali today so let's hope it's good omen.
Over to you Roy.

I'm sorry but I disagree. What you are saying is that with the whole of the internet at your disposal you were unable to form on opinion by researching the issue and you are waiting to be told what to think..

I agree wholeheartedly that the debate was pathetic and done for the sake of sound bites and conducted by our media in a Punch and Judy style.

I accept that many have been brought up to follow but I'm afraid we have to take responsibility for our actions and that includes our vote. Do your research and come to a conclusion if you don't, don't complain.

Yes there we're lies and disinformation but most worked that out early on.


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[larrylamb]

What you are saying is that with the whole of the internet at your disposal you were unable to form on opinion by researching the issue and you are waiting to be told what to think..

He's not saying that at all, I'm sure he voted one way or the other but he is correctly stating what a cockup the whole thing has been and how nobody in a position of power knows what to do now. Was there ever a plan for this scenario?

 

[GrannyJen]

We do appear to be in a state of governance meltdown.

Johnson and Gove have been flat-footed by actually winning, a scenario that now appears to have been outside their own personal agenda's and neither appears to know what to say next at a time the country is screaming for direction.

The bloke running the leave campaign has chosen to isolate Farage in his "Junta", the one bloke that hasn't had multiple changes of face since the whole issue blew up and someone that leads a party that got 4m votes at a general election screaming "out"

The "couldn't be bothered to turn up" leader of the opposition is facing revolt in his own party that is in itself in a state of anarchy. Most of the opposition front bench has either resigned or been sacked. The shadow chancellor, whoever he is, apparently has said everything's ok and he's ready to run the nations finances, if we have any left.

The bloke elected to run the country has told everyone he doesn't want to run it any more.

Mr Osborne is deciding whether to run the treasury, or to run for leader, or to turn Osborne into has been .

Hopefully in a weeks time someone may tell us another prime minister of renown led us into a war by at best misinforming parliament and one day we may tell the world where to land their aeroplanes when flying into this economic powerhouse that cannot even decide where to plonk a runway.

This all sounds depressingly familiar. 1960's comes to mind when De Gaulle wisely said "NON".

All we need now is Brian May fronting Theresa May singing "We are the champions"......

 

[Neilgbj]

Thanks again Welshgas for helping to educate me and explain why, even though I accept the democratic result, I have no right to feel upset unless I am prepared to emigrate. Your depth of arrogance is truly astounding and I now realise why so many others have been upset by your self-righteousness in the past.

Well said ....

True, I may be arrogant and self-righteous but I am prepared to accept a Democratic Decision. On this occasion one I agree with but in the past some I disagreed with. If I was not prepared to do that I would campaign to change the voting system or emigrate.
Yes, I am Arrogant and Self-righteous beyond belief in believing that there are 2 sides to an argument, 2 conflicting views and when there is a vote and I'm on the loosing side, big enough to accept the result of the majority.

It's just a shame that, whilst you are very helpful in technical aspects on here, your approach to those who may have the audacity to disagree with you is often so intolerant ......others are entitled to their opinion....#justsaying

 

[T6 CFO]

He's not saying that at all, I'm sure he voted one way or the other but he is correctly stating what a cockup the whole thing has been and how nobody in a position of power knows what to do now. Was there ever a plan for this scenario?

At the moment we are in a position where calm heads are required. One or two such as Ian Duncan Smith have been on and laid out a rough plan. Many of the others are fighting for the lifeboats or racking over the coals of the referendum. All fairly predictable. I'm afraid.

Some will be sorting things out in the background. Yes there are many but panic will create problems where there aren't any and add to the complexity. At the moment many of our elite are more worried about their own positions and trying to save their own skins. Not all of them will be and on the whole these are the ones who will have a plan. The dust needs to settle.
I certainly don't wish to offend anyone so sorry if I did.


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[WelshGas]

Well said ....

It's just a shame that, whilst you are very helpful in technical aspects on here, your approach to those who may have the audacity to disagree with you is often so intolerant ......others are entitled to their opinion....#justsaying

Sorry but I am not concerned with whether the poster has voted in or out, that is his democratic decision. What I do object to is his position of not accepting the Democratic decision of the people of the United Kingdom because it is contrary to his own view. I doubt if he would be objecting if the country had voted with the same margin as the Welsh Assembly Referendum to stay in the EU .
Yes, I am intolerant to those who refuse to accept the principal of the Democratic Process.
I don't care if he voted In, Out or for Shake it All About. He was able to have his say, as was I. The count has been made, the result is known and now we move on to the future. That's Life. Live it.
If you want to change the rules for the next time then vote for a MP who agrees with you.
We all knew what the voting rules were when the Referendum was announced but the Remain group were so sure they would prevail they didn't insist on any rule change and now their arrogance has come home to bite them where it hurts, in their pocket.
We are Europeans but do not wish to be ruled by Europe and neither do a large percentage of the population of many member countries of the EU, or so it would seem, but they have yet to be given a choice.