Keeping Leisure Battery Charged at Festivals

[calibusje]

Here's what the manual has to say on the subject:

---

Maximum battery charge​

The 230-V supply with the battery charger charges the additional battery from the outside 230-volt electrical feed. The current charge level of the additional battery is displayed in the start screen Central control panel start screen.

In order to completely charge the additional battery when driving independently of the vehicle functions, you can activate the maximum battery charge function.

The function increases the idling speed of the engine. The fuel consumption may increase as a result.

Switching maximum battery charge function on and off​

The maximum battery charge can only be activated when the engine is switched on.

Switch on the engine and the central control panel.

Tap the Max. charge menu.

The Max. charge menu is highlighted in yellow and the symbol appears in the header.

The function switches itself off automatically when the additional battery is fully charged.

Tap the Max. charge menu again to switch it off manually.

Or: Switch off the engine.

The Max. charge menu is highlighted in grey and the symbol disappears from the header.

If the function is switched off manually while the engine is idling, the engine speed will be reduced again only after you briefly press the accelerator.

---

To me, VW's intent in the second paragraph is along the lines of "If you want to fully charge your battery without EHU"

It certainly doesn't read as an operational limitation and I have some experience in extracting operational limitations from manuals.

Andy's suggestion to calm down is likely a good one. Everyone here will have noticed your climate stance and respect that.

Very well edited

 

[yossarian]

Very well edited

I realise that you're not a native English speaker but that sentence is clearly, to a native speaker, missing a word without which the sentence is nonsense. I've not tried to catch you out or anything nefarious.

You will notice that I typically document any substantial edits at the end of my posts. Eg https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/dashboard-lights.49947/post-644966

 

[calibusje]

I realise that you're not a native English speaker but that sentence is clearly, to a native speaker, missing a word without which the sentence is nonsense. I've not tried to catch you out or anything nefarious.

You will notice that I typically document any substantial edits at the end of my posts. Eg https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/dashboard-lights.49947/post-644966

I don't really understand your response, but never mind. Anyway: I'm here just trying to pass on valuable correct knowledge, experiences and travel tips to the people here. That's all; Oh yes and I am always honest when it comes to my cali, always and about everything and some people can't handle that.
So, it is obvious that people should not use the max. charging function when they are connected to the cable and so: good editing on your part because this was how it stood there before and could cause problems for people who would accept this and would do so (was told to me by the people from CamperCentrum Amersfoort). Whether one uses that function while driving (the actual intention as in the instructions) or while stationary (also possible and won’t harm the system) does not matter to me. Whether they are used on a campsite at a festival: all the same for me. I'm not going to get into that discussion, but it's not worth arguing about. Better quit before there will be rude reactions from someone (and that is not nice). Have a nice evening and focus on what's important. For me you all have valuable points about the use of the max. loading function and weather to use it on a campsite or not; I learned about thar function at CC Amersfoort and use it a lot now: it keeps the batteries full (100% and not 80%) and I mentioned that and more in a post:
https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/thread...per-centrum-amersfoort-the-netherlands.47935/
I must stop now or someone will mention my posts are too long

 

[Nigel Whitwood]

The part you ” quoted “ or made up.

Read the manual. Its been posted on this forum by the very person who clearly hasn't read it, and doesn't know what he's missed!

 

[WelshGas]

Read the manual. Its been posted on this forum by the very person who clearly hasn't read it, and doesn't know what he's missed!

Oh, I was hoping you had gone, as promised.

Where exactly does it say " Thou can only use the Max Charging function whilst driving ".?

 

[Viktorgeorge]

I don't really understand your response, but never mind. Anyway: I'm here just trying to pass on valuable correct knowledge, experiences and travel tips to the people here. That's all; Oh yes and I am always honest when it comes to my cali, always and about everything and some people can't handle that.
So, it is obvious that people should not use the max. charging function when they are connected to the cable and so: good editing on your part because this was how it stood there before and could cause problems for people who would accept this and would do so (was told to me by the people from CamperCentrum Amersfoort). Whether one uses that function while driving (the actual intention as in the instructions) or while stationary (also possible and won’t harm the system) does not matter to me. Whether they are used on a campsite at a festival: all the same for me. I'm not going to get into that discussion, but it's not worth arguing about. Better quit before there will be rude reactions from someone (and that is not nice). Have a nice evening and focus on what's important. For me you all have valuable points about the use of the max. loading function and weather to use it on a campsite or not; I learned about thar function at CC Amersfoort and use it a lot now: it keeps the batteries full (100% and not 80%) and I mentioned that and more in a post:
https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/thread...per-centrum-amersfoort-the-netherlands.47935/
I must stop now or someone will mention my posts are too long

Yes they are, but at the same time your posts are quite enjoyable and good humoured, unlike NW above who must have ‘got out of the wrong side of the bed’ - an English metaphor you may not have come across although your mastery of our language is impressive.

 

[Nigel Whitwood]

Here's what the manual has to say on the subject:

---

Maximum battery charge​

The 230-V supply with the battery charger charges the additional battery from the outside 230-volt electrical feed. The current charge level of the additional battery is displayed in the start screen Central control panel start screen.

In order to completely charge the additional battery when driving independently of the vehicle functions, you can activate the maximum battery charge function.

The function increases the idling speed of the engine. The fuel consumption may increase as a result.

Switching maximum battery charge function on and off​

The maximum battery charge can only be activated when the engine is switched on.

Switch on the engine and the central control panel.

Tap the Max. charge menu.

The Max. charge menu is highlighted in yellow and the symbol appears in the header.

The function switches itself off automatically when the additional battery is fully charged.

Tap the Max. charge menu again to switch it off manually.

Or: Switch off the engine.

The Max. charge menu is highlighted in grey and the symbol disappears from the header.

If the function is switched off manually while the engine is idling, the engine speed will be reduced again only after you briefly press the accelerator.

---

To me, VW's intent in the second paragraph is along the lines of "If you want to fully charge your battery without EHU"

It certainly doesn't read as an operational limitation and I have some experience in extracting operational limitations from manuals.

Andy's suggestion to calm down is likely a good one. Everyone here will have noticed your climate stance and respect that.

At last a response that is not intended to be antagonistic. Thanks for that!

So what you are saying is that it's ambiguous ? I see no reference to EHU but I do see the term "when driving". I also know that for various reasons, some of which are legal, VW are very unlikely to recommend idling to charge batteries, or provide a function specifically for that purpose. I have never said that it's an operation limitation, (in fact I have pointed out that it isn't), but believe that charging while idling is a FEATURE rather than the REQUIREMENT that lead to the design. That is the point that others seem to be wilfully ignoring.

I think VWs intent is subtly different and is more likely to be "If you want to fully charge your battery when driving AFTER camping without EHU "

Note that my concern is not just environmental. I also think it wrong for an "expert" to suggest something that might be detrimental to the engine, be considered by many as antisocial and, subject to interpretation, be illegal if performed on a public highway, particularly if it's something they are unlikely to do themselves.

 

[Nigel Whitwood]

Oh, I was hoping you had gone, as promised.

Where exactly does it say " Thou can only use the Max Charging function whilst driving ".?

I managed to find a site with WiFi, and I didn't promise anything.

Kind of cowardly to accuse me of making things up when you didn't think Id be listening isn't it? It certainly doesn't add anything to the debate or calm things down?

See my reply elsewhere to answer your question, but in short it doesn't. Neither does it recommend that you do.

 

[WelshGas]

At last a response that is not intended to be antagonistic. Thanks for that!

So what you are saying is that it's ambiguous ? I see no reference to EHU but I do see the term "when driving". I also know that for various reasons, some of which are legal, VW are very unlikely to recommend idling to charge batteries, or provide a function specifically for that purpose. I have never said that it's an operation limitation, (in fact I have pointed out that it isn't), but believe that charging while idling is a FEATURE rather than the REQUIREMENT that lead to the design. That is the point that others seem to be wilfully ignoring.

I think VWs intent is subtly different and is more likely to be "If you want to fully charge your battery when driving AFTER camping without EHU "

Note that my concern is not just environmental. I also think it wrong for an "expert" to suggest something that might be detrimental to the engine, be considered by many as antisocial and, subject to interpretation, be illegal if performed on a public highway, particularly if it's something they are unlikely to do themselves.

I see by your comments you are also confused about the benefits of biofuels and the confusion regarding Climate Change and Environmental Pollution due to the production of PM2.5 particles and Nitric Oxide.
Using biofuels has no impactor PM2.5 particles or Nitric Oxide produced by an Internal Combustion engine.
Biofuels do have an impact on Climate change as although they still produce CO2, one of the main greenhouse gases, the fuel is made from a renewable source, normally biomass, which captures and uses CO2 whilst growing which is then converted to fuel which is then burnt producing CO2 and so round and round we go. The problems with biofuels is the energy source used to produce the fuel and the fertilisers etc used to grow the biomass.
The fact that the festival organisers use biofuels for their generators is nothing more than virtue signalling on a grand scale. If they really want to show their Climate and environmental credentials then they should cancel the festival, that would have a significant Climate and Environmental impact, but they would lose all the revenue and profit.

 

[WelshGas]

I managed to find a site with WiFi, and I didn't promise anything.

Kind of cowardly to accuse me of making things up when you didn't think Id be listening isn't it? It certainly doesn't add anything to the debate or calm things down?

See my reply elsewhere to answer your question, but in short it doesn't. Neither does it recommend that you do.

Oh, I knew you were on the site. Difficult to hide that fact.

 

[calibusje]

Just for your information and certainly not to take sides with anyone: the manual says 'while driving...', but I don't think this excludes the possibility that the function can also be used when stationary and therefore to possibly charge the household batteries faster and more fully than without the max. load function. What's more: I just tried it and it works: in neutral position with the engine on you can apply the max. charge function and you will hear the idle speed increase. When ending the function, the speed remains higher and you have to give it a little throttle to lower it back (also as said in the manual). I don't use the function that way and only while driving, but it's nice to know that - if ever necessary - you can top up the household batteries in a faster, more efficient way; great!

 

[dspuk]

This post has all the hallmarks of becoming a mega post in the ilk of Ocean vs Coast vs Beach ones.

I have therefore sat with interest, and popcorn.

Feels to me that, in some way, everyone is in violent agreement but have got each others backs up - esp over minute wording in the manual. I actually agree with @calibusje on this one and his post.

TLDR? You could use both. I would also not get into the "should you shouldn't you" do it conversation at a festival. But if the site is empty and everyone is off watching the music, why not? If it's full and people trying to do stuff, sleep, enjoy the day, why would you? As with all things, common sense always prevails. And good manners.

My understanding is that the main function of the max charge is just that - give you max charge. Especially useful if you are going to be at a festival as the VW itself likes to keep the charge at 80% as a battery life lengthening measure (correct?).

So day to day, EHU etc, short site stays, this is not an issue. 5 days at a festival, limiting your use and no Solar? On the drive there stick the max charge on and bobs yr uncle, should get 5 days. As @flying banana says - it's likely to be plenty if you keep it frugal and don't extract the piddle.

You can of course use when static, regardless of the manual, which IMHO, can be read both ways - the stuff about it damaging the engine is twaddle. All you will get is an increase in revs while sat there and the battery will top up, eventually, to 100%. It would be interesting to see how long that actually took, and of course depend how depleted you were, but as we have a 100W panel, I don't have the time nor inclination to find out.

Be also interesting to see the actual effect of the idle increase on how much faster it would charge vs non increase. My hunch is not much but the increase will spin the alternator that much faster and allow it to trickle a little more into all three (20% faster?). No different to how we used to do it in the Army when we had a flat on the Landys - jump start, put a weight on the accelerator to get the revs up to 1200, leave for 20 minutes.

We are actually doing Wilderness soon, off EHU, for 5 days, with a 100W panel, so for my own interest but fun to see how that goes. I expect it will be tickety boo and will not need to be sat on idle at any point.

 

[Nigel Whitwood]

I see by your comments you are also confused about the benefits of biofuels and the confusion regarding Climate Change and Environmental Pollution due to the production of PM2.5 particles and Nitric Oxide.
Using biofuels has no impactor PM2.5 particles or Nitric Oxide produced by an Internal Combustion engine.
Biofuels do have an impact on Climate change as although they still produce CO2, one of the main greenhouse gases, the fuel is made from a renewable source, normally biomass, which captures and uses CO2 whilst growing which is then converted to fuel which is then burnt producing CO2 and so round and round we go. The problems with biofuels is the energy source used to produce the fuel and the fertilisers etc used to grow the biomass.
The fact that the festival organisers use biofuels for their generators is nothing more than virtue signalling on a grand scale. If they really want to show their Climate and environmental credentials then they should cancel the festival, that would have a significant Climate and Environmental impact, but they would lose all the revenue and profit.

Very typical in this thread to pick me up on one point choising not to answer the many other valid points I have .made. Also typical to quote a response and then choose not to commenting on it.
Regarding this issue, it is the particulates that are likely to be the main issue due to the close proximity of other people and their vans. It simply is not possible to guarantee that theere won't be an asthmatic somewhere close by.

 

[WelshGas]

Very typical in this thread to pick me up on one point choising not to answer the many other valid points I have .made. Also typical to quote a response and then choose not to commenting on it.
Regarding this issue, it is the particulates that are likely to be the main issue due to the close proximity of other people and their vans. It simply is not possible to guarantee that theere won't be an asthmatic somewhere close by.

And your point that the festival organisers are running their generators on biofuel does nothing for PM2.5 particles. In fact it's worse than a California fitted with a DPF.
In fact it is extremely hypocritical to quote the climate and enviromental consequences when you are more than happy owning and driving a California.

 

[Nigel Whitwood]

Yes, like most I am hypocritical but then its part of the human condition and I've always believed being a martyr to one's belief to be foolish. I try to do my bit by avoiding driving through residential areas or short, unessessary trips. Nether do I surround my van and others with pollutants just to keep my beer cold.

But as stated numerous time, there are other important issues that you and others have avoided to address and my hypocrisy does nothing to change that!

 

[andyinluton]

But as stated numerous time, there are other important issues that you and others have avoided to address and my hypocrisy does nothing to change that!

We get that you’ve stated certain things numerous times but what are the other important issues that have not been addresses?

 

[Susie Sandgate]

Looking at the forthcoming summer of festivals has got me thinking about Glastonbury (one year maybe). The campervan area is open from Tues at 12:00 before the weekend and you’re likely to be leaving the following Monday. There is no EHU. I don’t really want solar panels fitted but wondered if a portable solar panel may help keep the leisure battery charged for the fridge. I suppose I then worry about it being taken! I think generators are banned. Any ideas?

We are just back from a great three days at Black Deer Festival - we had solar fitted to our Coast (at The Dub Hut near Ashford) a couple of weeks ago and that worked a treat. We thankfully did not experience anyone running their engines for 45 minutes a day - the noise and pollution would have ruined the peace and clean air of the campsite. Would definitely recommend solar!

 

[andyinluton]

I also know that for various reasons, some of which are legal, VW are very unlikely to recommend idling to charge batteries, or provide a function specifically for that purpose. I have never said that it's an operation limitation, (in fact I have pointed out that it isn't), but believe that charging while idling is a FEATURE rather than the REQUIREMENT that lead to the design. That is the point that others seem to be wilfully ignoring.

I think VWs intent is subtly different and is more likely to be "If you want to fully charge your battery when driving AFTER camping without EHU "

Have you read the trouble shooting section on page 75? it states:

Battery voltage is too low

Electrical consumers have been switched on and caused the voltage of the additional battery to drop to 10.5 volts or below.
1. Charge the batteries via the 230-volt supply or by running the engine.

There you have it, an instruction from vws own handbook - charge the leisure battery by running the engine, no mention of going for a drive!


Despite there being warning about XY&Z covering just about everything possible thing you can think of on almost every page in the manual, it does not have one on that page warning of clogging DPFs or against charging whilst stationary......

 

[Nigel Whitwood]

We get that you’ve stated certain things numerous times but what are the other important issues that have not been addresses?

I have only just had the opportunity to read some of the recent posts from others and some attempt has been made, (by them), to address these.

I cannot agree to the statement that the risk to the engine or particulate filter is "twaddle", but I'm not about to put that to the test. You can if you like, but be warned, there are many articles suggesting that the risk is real and I have always avoided it through 50 years of driving irrespective of engine type (which is probably why I'm emotionally against it).

Just one more comment. If turned on it's head, it says more about those who have accused me of hypocrisy than it does about me. I'm quite happy to accept that label and I'll take it as a win that some might consider themselves to have been called out.

I won't post anything more until I receive a response form the Glastonbury organisers. This may or may make most of this thread irrelevant but whatever, I promise to post it.

 

[Nigel Whitwood]

Have you read the trouble shooting section on page 75? it states:

Battery voltage is too low

Electrical consumers have been switched on and caused the voltage of the additional battery to drop to 10.5 volts or below.
1. Charge the batteries via the 230-volt supply or by running the engine.

There you have it, an instruction from vws own handbook - charge the leisure battery by running the engine, no mention of going for a drive!


Despite there being warning about XY&Z covering just about everything possible thing you can think of on almost every page in the manual, it does not have one on that page warning of clogging DPFs or against charging whilst stationary......

Nope. I have a T6. Like everything in the handbooks this is subject to interpretation as there is no mention of remaining stationary either. Without the Requirements, Functional and Design Specifications there is little point in discussing this further, we'll just have to agree to disagree. There is however no way that this can be taken as a recommendation from VW to idle the engine for 45mins a day to keep ones beer cold. If refrigeration is needed for insulin there are several better alternatives specifically for that purpose - use Google.

 

[Steve1]

You can of course use when static, regardless of the manual, which IMHO, can be read both ways - the stuff about it damaging the engine is twaddle. All you will get is an increase in revs while sat there and the battery will top up, eventually, to 100%. It would be interesting to see how long that actually took, and of course depend how depleted you were, but as we have a 100W panel, I don't have the time nor inclination to find out.

Charging to 100% takes ages, because the battery is charged with constant voltage (lets say traditionally 14.4V but smart alternators do slightly different things now). When the battery has low charge lots of current will flow but, as the lead acid battery charges and its voltage increases, it's internal resistance does too which results in the amount of current it accepts being less. So the closer to charged it is the slower it charges.
This means that if you are running the engine or driving just to charge the battery, not to go anywhere, the best (least time running) approach is to first wait until batteries are fairly depleted lets say 12.1V or 12.2V (not too much lower or they get hurt) which is around 50% or 75Ah used. This should be 2 to 3 days into your stay with a properly cold fridge in warm conditions. Then if you run the engine for around 45mins on max charge it will charge very hard, starting probably around 80A and reducing over time, this is called tapering. The control panel only shows greater than 20A during this though, not the actual current. In the 45min you should typically put back about 40Ah of charge (as measured by me when I was bored) into the battery of the around 80Ah used, so about 25% additional charge added back to the 50% your were at before you started. This should be at least another whole day perhaps a bit more depending on your fridge settings. If you try to put back the whole 80Ah in one engine running session, I would estimate at least 3 hours maybe more.

 

[Nigel Whitwood]

Have you read the trouble shooting section on page 75? it states:

Battery voltage is too low

Electrical consumers have been switched on and caused the voltage of the additional battery to drop to 10.5 volts or below.
1. Charge the batteries via the 230-volt supply or by running the engine.

There you have it, an instruction from vws own handbook - charge the leisure battery by running the engine, no mention of going for a drive!


Despite there being warning about XY&Z covering just about everything possible thing you can think of on almost every page in the manual, it does not have one on that page warning of clogging DPFs or against charging whilst stationary......

But wait. It is in my guide, which surely means that it has nothing to do with a function that is not available on my vehicle.

I also found the following statements: "
Drive the vehicle for a sufficient
length of time to recharge the additional battery" and "pull off as soon possible". I won't provide reference because I do not want to deprive anyone the opportunity of accusing of lying and you can make of these what you will.

Strangely, I couldn't find a warning not to drive with the tailgate open, something from first hand experience I am very surprised that, by omissions, VW have recommended, (edit - sorry, my mistake, it comes under "boot lid". Weird that no audible warning is provided if left open though).

There are numerous omissions that I'm sure others might have fun suggesting you try.

Finally there is a recent thread elsewhere that suggests that if close to full and the DPF is deprived of a regeneration, (through idling), it could force the engine into limp mode. This is something that can only be rectified at great expense and not something one would want in a muddy field at Worthy Farm. I have no idea if the person saying this knows his stuff, but I guess he must be mistaken.as VW don't appear to have mention it in the manual.

 

[andyinluton]

Strangely, I couldn't find a warning not to drive with the tailgate open, something from first hand experience I am very surprised that, by omissions, VW have recommended, (edit - sorry, my mistake, it comes under "boot lid". Weird that no audible warning is provided if left open though).

try page 77
Warning!
Always keep the boot lid closed while the vehicle is in motion.

 

[WelshGas]

But wait. It is in my guide, which surely means that it has nothing to do with a function that is not available on my vehicle.

I also found the following statements: "
Drive the vehicle for a sufficient
length of time to recharge the additional battery" and "pull off as soon possible". I won't provide reference because I do not want to deprive anyone the opportunity of accusing of lying and you can make of these what you will.

Strangely, I couldn't find a warning not to drive with the tailgate open, something from first hand experience I am very surprised that, by omissions, VW have recommended, (edit - sorry, my mistake, it comes under "boot lid". Weird that no audible warning is provided if left open though).

There are numerous omissions that I'm sure others might have fun suggesting you try.

Finally there is a recent thread elsewhere that suggests that if close to full and the DPF is deprived of a regeneration, (through idling), it could force the engine into limp mode. This is something that can only be rectified at great expense and not something one would want in a muddy field at Worthy Farm. I have no idea if the person saying this knows his stuff, but I guess he must be mistaken.as VW don't appear to have mention it in the manual.

If you have just driven to a festival and arrived with your DPF close to full, well you already have problems.

 

[andyinluton]

If you have just driven to a festival and arrived with your DPF close to full, well you already have problems.

Probably will be full - normally hours of queues to get in & out.

Good job the emissions while queuing are not seen as a problem.