Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[P600BOO]

No Never, i believe they do more damage than good. the current bellows in my experience folds away very well.

No need, mine closes perfect every time. Just make sure a window or door is open and then the pop top folds as it should do.

 

[markbrown83]

No need, mine closes perfect every time. Just make sure a window or door is open and then the pop top folds as it should do.

I have to agree. We bought a bungee but won’t be using it.

The only bit of the pop top we need to keep an eye on is the front. Just line it up as it comes down so it tucks in nicely when you close the hatch above your head.

 

[RockinNRollin]

I’m sure someone would make a bellows for a price but it’d have to be hand made I expect and would probably cost a lot. I’d sooner use a wrap.

 

[Ethelred]

Hi,
third time in the rain pop top still leaking 2023 model coming up to
12 months old I first phoned vw Liverpool they said it takes time for
the bellows to ajust to the weather it’s been three times in the rain
and still I think when it rains the water collects where the seam is
and just slowly comes in

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Hi,
third time in the rain pop top still leaking 2023 model coming up to
12 months old I first phoned vw Liverpool they said it takes time for
the bellows to ajust to the weather it’s been three times in the rain
and still I think when it rains the water collects where the seam is
and just slowly comes in

View attachment 120423

View attachment 120424

View attachment 120425

Takes time for the bellows to adjust to the weather!? What a load of rubbish.

 

[Capt_Stanley]

That’s the same for me on my 2024 model

 

[Julesverne2000]

Here's my position. Collected Ocean 29 Sep 23. Watched this thread throughout.

4-5 light to medium rain tests on the drive, back to the light wind, 9 hours in total. No ingress. Watching this thread, I took the plunge and applied water-based seal sealant to front seams only and Fabsil fabric protector to the front. Nothing to the sides.

5-6 nights on dry campsites, obviously no problem. Then 2 nights in a wet Welsh campsite with the Cali facing north, with wind and medium to heavy rain from the west. (I couldn't park with the back into the prevailing westerly wind). Nearside (west) side panel seams started leaking on the right edge after 20-25 minutes; not heavy but consistent and would have continued all night. Front seam (sealed with water-based sealant) one or two very slight and sporadic drips after 45-60 mins. Nothing on the offside (east) side panel. I closed the top - no saturation experienced.

On return, I told my dealer I had a leaker and was honest about the front seam sealant, knowing it might impact the warranty. They are now investigating what the VW position is. I decided to plunge deeper and treated all front and side seams with the Fabsil polymer based seam sealant and both sides with Fabsil waterproofer, just to see if this will work and avoid the ongoing replacement bellows saga. This will be tested on a 4 day trip next week in Lancashire.

I know that VW may well say Tango Sierra and I've invalidated the warranty. In that case, I have several options:

1. The Fabsil protection works.
2. Always park the Cali back into wind
3. Use the Comfortz cali topper I have (bombproof but a bit fiddly to put on, especially for a single night)
4. Pay for a replacement bellows. This means I can wait until it's clear which OSx version really works and I can demand this is fitted.

Next week will be interesting...

Thanks for such a helpful update, very interested to know how the DIY fix performs longer term.

Ive had a look at seam sealers to see how they could be applied on the internal seams. Have you found that they leave a residue or are visible after application?

My assumption is that the external Fabsil would be undetectable.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Hi,
third time in the rain pop top still leaking 2023 model coming up to
12 months old I first phoned vw Liverpool they said it takes time for
the bellows to ajust to the weather it’s been three times in the rain
and still I think when it rains the water collects where the seam is
and just slowly comes in

I assume from the timescales you suggest, you're rocking a 3S so we would all "expect" it to leak. As for the "adjust", I think historically any material which involves woven thread which swells when wet can "adjust" (e.g. Force 10 tents) but it does seem debatable if the latest generation of bellows actually have any components that would react that way.

 

[Kayleigh]

Here's my position. Collected Ocean 29 Sep 23. Watched this thread throughout.

4-5 light to medium rain tests on the drive, back to the light wind, 9 hours in total. No ingress. Watching this thread, I took the plunge and applied water-based seal sealant to front seams only and Fabsil fabric protector to the front. Nothing to the sides.

5-6 nights on dry campsites, obviously no problem. Then 2 nights in a wet Welsh campsite with the Cali facing north, with wind and medium to heavy rain from the west. (I couldn't park with the back into the prevailing westerly wind). Nearside (west) side panel seams started leaking on the right edge after 20-25 minutes; not heavy but consistent and would have continued all night. Front seam (sealed with water-based sealant) one or two very slight and sporadic drips after 45-60 mins. Nothing on the offside (east) side panel. I closed the top - no saturation experienced.

On return, I told my dealer I had a leaker and was honest about the front seam sealant, knowing it might impact the warranty. They are now investigating what the VW position is. I decided to plunge deeper and treated all front and side seams with the Fabsil polymer based seam sealant and both sides with Fabsil waterproofer, just to see if this will work and avoid the ongoing replacement bellows saga. This will be tested on a 4 day trip next week in Lancashire.

I know that VW may well say Tango Sierra and I've invalidated the warranty. In that case, I have several options:

1. The Fabsil protection works.
2. Always park the Cali back into wind
3. Use the Comfortz cali topper I have (bombproof but a bit fiddly to put on, especially for a single night)
4. Pay for a replacement bellows. This means I can wait until it's clear which OSx version really works and I can demand this is fitted.

Next week will be interesting...

I wonder if at some point VW will cut their losses on this bellows saga and just approve the use of a seam sealant like fAbsil…

 

[GreenMissile]

We have 04S A bellows manufactured on 15/11/23 so past the 09/11/23 date that is supposed to be defining date for a solution to this whole sorry saga.
Previously we had been away and only encountered a couple of hours of rain and the bellows were fine, no leaks, no water when lowering the bellows coming into the cabin from the right/left seams. The rain on the occasion was light to steady with very little wind as per my previous post, and we were relieved if not still a bit apprehensive of would they hold up when exposed to rain for a longer duration, say like going to bed when it is dry and it rains steadily during the night.
Yesterday I set up the bellows at home as we have commitments to holidays in the coming months and you can be sure the UK weather will provide a good dousing of rain at some point.
Every 30 minutes I inspected the bellows to check to see if there was any leaks. The rain was constant with light winds varying from light to steady rainfall. For first 3 hours everything was fine then at 3.5 hours the first drop appeared on the lowest horizontal seam of the front window. This was a droplet, no water on either side panel or at the rear at this time. I left it a further 30 minutes and returned to check and there were now multiple points all along the same seam with droplets forming and dripping down onto the painted roof bodywork where it was pooling. The drips were now forming and falling off the seam on a constant and regular basis, and of course speeding up in terms of forming and dropping off as the bellows became wetter. There were no leaks at the bottom edges of the window on the half moon window, and no leaks from the front main vertical seams at the front. Both side windows and and the rear of the bellows were at this time showing no signs of leakage. The change in that 30 minute window was quite dramatic and the volume of water entering the van was becoming more significant with each passing minute. At that point I had decided enough was enough in fear of water damaging the electrics on the control panel or staining the headlining.
So our experience is that the bellows appear to be able to sustain a shorter period of rain without showing signs of leakage but there is a tipping point and in our case this was at 3.5 hours of steady rain. On dropping the bellows the volume of water that poured onto the driver and passenger seats was pretty significant, thankfully I had anticipated this and had put towels on top of our waterproof VW seat covers which protected them.
We are extremely disappointed to say the least, this has unquestionably taken the joy and excitement of owning such a fabulous vehicle away from us, only had it a couple of months.
We are now awaiting contact from VW Executive office as to where we go from here as our supplying dealer were happy to support and forward our email to escalate the failure.
We certainly will not be looking at getting new bellows fitted until VW can provide an assurance that the bellows are watertight and robust, but we will not hold our breath on this as fear it may not be resolved yet.
We sincerely hope that some of you with the latest manufactured bellows can come on and let us know that there is hope, but we were on the right side of the magic date and version but it failed us miserably!

 

[Jimmylondon07]

A bellows wrap that you can throw on when extended rain is forecast is simply a requirement for any new Cali owner in my opinion. Sad but true.

 

[ParachuteMan]

Thanks for such a helpful update, very interested to know how the DIY fix performs longer term.

Ive had a look at seam sealers to see how they could be applied on the internal seams. Have you found that they leave a residue or are visible after application?

My assumption is that the external Fabsil would be undetectable.

Hi. Yes, the Fabsil waterproofer is undetectable - you can’t tell I’ve applied it. However, the Fabsil seam sealer I have applied inside and out is clear on the inside, but leaves “snail trails” on the outside, so you can see something has been applied. If it all works, not a problem. If it doesn’t, the warranty is probably screwed. But I’ve factored that in - I spent several weeks considering what to do. Too late now to change my mind !

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

We have 04S A bellows manufactured on 15/11/23 so past the 09/11/23 date that is supposed to be defining date for a solution to this whole sorry saga.
Previously we had been away and only encountered a couple of hours of rain and the bellows were fine, no leaks, no water when lowering the bellows coming into the cabin from the right/left seams. The rain on the occasion was light to steady with very little wind as per my previous post, and we were relieved if not still a bit apprehensive of would they hold up when exposed to rain for a longer duration, say like going to bed when it is dry and it rains steadily during the night.
Yesterday I set up the bellows at home as we have commitments to holidays in the coming months and you can be sure the UK weather will provide a good dousing of rain at some point.
Every 30 minutes I inspected the bellows to check to see if there was any leaks. The rain was constant with light winds varying from light to steady rainfall. For first 3 hours everything was fine then at 3.5 hours the first drop appeared on the lowest horizontal seam of the front window. This was a droplet, no water on either side panel or at the rear at this time. I left it a further 30 minutes and returned to check and there were now multiple points all along the same seam with droplets forming and dripping down onto the painted roof bodywork where it was pooling. The drips were now forming and falling off the seam on a constant and regular basis, and of course speeding up in terms of forming and dropping off as the bellows became wetter. There were no leaks at the bottom edges of the window on the half moon window, and no leaks from the front main vertical seams at the front. Both side windows and and the rear of the bellows were at this time showing no signs of leakage. The change in that 30 minute window was quite dramatic and the volume of water entering the van was becoming more significant with each passing minute. At that point I had decided enough was enough in fear of water damaging the electrics on the control panel or staining the headlining.
So our experience is that the bellows appear to be able to sustain a shorter period of rain without showing signs of leakage but there is a tipping point and in our case this was at 3.5 hours of steady rain. On dropping the bellows the volume of water that poured onto the driver and passenger seats was pretty significant, thankfully I had anticipated this and had put towels on top of our waterproof VW seat covers which protected them.
We are extremely disappointed to say the least, this has unquestionably taken the joy and excitement of owning such a fabulous vehicle away from us, only had it a couple of months.
We are now awaiting contact from VW Executive office as to where we go from here as our supplying dealer were happy to support and forward our email to escalate the failure.
We certainly will not be looking at getting new bellows fitted until VW can provide an assurance that the bellows are watertight and robust, but we will not hold our breath on this as fear it may not be resolved yet.
We sincerely hope that some of you with the latest manufactured bellows can come on and let us know that there is hope, but we were on the right side of the magic date and version but it failed us miserably!

This sounds very similar to post number 2449 @Justinitus1972

Pretty terrible really and failing in a similar way. Now delayed until the bellows are overwhelmed and then the flood gates open! I suspect the number of rejections forced VW’s hand with bellows redesign from 03S to 04S. Will enough people be affected by failing 04S for the same to happen? I don’t know why but I’m feeling doubtful.

 

[stationmaster]

This sounds very similar to post number 2449 @Justinitus1972

Pretty terrible really and failing in a similar way. Now delayed until the bellows are overwhelmed and then the flood gates open! I suspect the number of rejections forced VW’s hand with bellows redesign from 03S to 04S. Will enough people be affected by failing 04S for the same to happen? I don’t know why but I’m feeling doubtful.

Hope you do not mind me asking...how are you feeling about your personal stance on this - i know you were feeling more relaxed about things bellows related.

Too early to really know for certain, but It is now looking less favourable for the 04S bellows perhaps?

 

[markbrown83]

Hope you do not mind me asking...how are you feeling about your personal stance on this - i know you were feeling more relaxed about things bellows related.

Too early to really know for certain, but It is now looking less favourable for the 04S bellows perhaps?

I think we need to concentrate on the newer models of bellows. December onwards.

Until we hear about the performance of the more recent bellows i think it’s still a little too early to say.

I just hope I’m not another statistic in a months time.

@stationmaster what was the date on yours? I forget.

 

[stationmaster]

I think we need to concentrate on the newer models of bellows. December onwards.

Until we hear about the performance of the more recent bellows i think it’s still a little too early to say.

I just hope I’m not another statistic in a months time.

@stationmaster what was the date on yours? I forget.

Early December 23.

I agree, being a statistic sucks

 

[stationmaster]

Early December 23.

I agree, being a statistic sucks

...the unpredictable/varied conditions that cause the leak are as much a problem as the leak itself for me.

You go to bed, but have no idea if your'e going to face a rude awakening:

Water damaged roof linings, electronically knackered control panel...and the rest of it...

Under the vinyl flooring of the van is a chipboard base...we all know what happens to chipboard when it gets wet. It is perfectly conceivable the whole van would need to be stripped out: headlining, cupboards, beds...

Not good.

 

[stationmaster]

...the unpredictable/varied conditions that cause the leak are as much a problem as the leak itself for me.

You go to bed, but have no idea if your'e going to face a rude awakening:

Water damaged roof linings, electronically knackered control panel...and the rest of it...

Under the vinyl flooring of the van is a chipboard base...we all know what happens to chipboard when it gets wet. It is perfectly conceivable the whole van would need to be stripped out: headlining, cupboards, beds...

Not good.

My house flooded a while back...wouldn't wish it on anybody.

 

[stationmaster]

...the unpredictable/varied conditions that cause the leak are as much a problem as the leak itself for me.

You go to bed, but have no idea if your'e going to face a rude awakening:

Water damaged roof linings, electronically knackered control panel...and the rest of it...

Under the vinyl flooring of the van is a chipboard base...we all know what happens to chipboard when it gets wet. It is perfectly conceivable the whole van would need to be stripped out: headlining, cupboards, beds...

Not good.

...thinking about it...the independent action that parachuteman has taken make a great deal of sense:

OK so the warranty "may" be lost on the roof, but a whole bunch of far worse stuff has potentially been avoided. And...peace of mind has been achieved.

 

[Corradobrit]

Before I switch based on this latest data set I'm going to stress test 03S again. If the water only enters at the curved front panel zipper (were it leaking the first time) I will seriously consider water proofing just that seam. At this point I'm not convinced the 04S is the solution. A few more similar reports will push me off the fence.

 

[Jimmylondon07]

...thinking about it...the independent action that parachuteman has taken make a great deal of sense:

OK so the warranty "may" be lost on the roof, but a whole bunch of far worse stuff has potentially been avoided. And...peace of mind has been achieved.

Why wouldn’t you just buy a £2-300 bellows wrap though? We shouldn’t have to do any of these steps of course but accepting that we do, a wrap takes one minute to fit and also adds extra insulation during colder periods.

My MO is if it’s a shower or an isolated heavy downpour I’ll leave it off, most of the more recent canvases can hold up to those no problem. If it’s looking like it might be prolonged or if I’m in any doubt (especially overnight) then I’ll just put the wrap on. It packs away to nothing and lives inside one of my foldaway chairs so takes up no space. No brainer surely?

 

[stationmaster]

Before I switch based on this latest data set I'm going to stress test 03S again. If the water only enters at the curved front panel zipper (were it leaking the first time) I will seriously consider water proofing just that seam. At this point I'm not convinced the 04S is the solution. A few more similar reports will push me off the fence.

Independent action may be the simplest way ahead (assuming it works of course).

 

[stationmaster]

Why wouldn’t you just buy a £2-300 bellows wrap though? We shouldn’t have to do any of these steps of course but accepting that we do, a wrap takes one minute to fit and also adds extra insulation during colder periods.

My MO is if it’s a shower or an isolated heavy downpour I’ll leave it off, most of the more recent canvases can hold up to those no problem. If it’s looking like it might be prolonged or if I’m in any doubt (especially overnight) then I’ll just put the wrap on. It packs away to nothing and lives inside one of my foldaway chairs so takes up no space. No brainer surely?

Sure. A wrap will work for some.

No brainer?

They could be a little tricky if your'e on your own, or maybe if your're less tall, less fit...

 

[Maidment_Ocean]

Why wouldn’t you just buy a £2-300 bellows wrap though? We shouldn’t have to do any of these steps of course but accepting that we do, a wrap takes one minute to fit and also adds extra insulation during colder periods.

My MO is if it’s a shower or an isolated heavy downpour I’ll leave it off, most of the more recent canvases can hold up to those no problem. If it’s looking like it might be prolonged or if I’m in any doubt (especially overnight) then I’ll just put the wrap on. It packs away to nothing and lives inside one of my foldaway chairs so takes up no space. No brainer surely?

Hi, what wrap do you have that folds so small Please?

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Hope you do not mind me asking...how are you feeling about your personal stance on this - i know you were feeling more relaxed about things bellows related.

Too early to really know for certain, but It is now looking less favourable for the 04S bellows perhaps?

Not at all. Right now I’m happier with the improved performance of the bellows but I still don’t really see it as being fit for purpose if all 04S behave like this. We’ve not seen this kind of leakage on ours yet, and we may not at all, so difficult to know what to expect. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if all 04S behave in the same way though. Previously we rejected our van as it was basically unusable. That won’t be happening this time because it’s still a really useful vehicle to us and the performance seems to be (so far) a lot better. We have a Comfortz Cali Wrap so we can rest a bit easier in bad weather too. My only concern is when it rains overnight unexpectedly and we aren’t prepared for it as we could get taken by surprise and end up with water everywhere. This would obviously not be good at all and so we would like to see the part revised again so that leakage doesn’t occur at all in normal circumstances if 04S turn out to be too leaky. My only concern and suspicion is that there won’t be enough momentum created by owners to force VW to improve the part again, so we could all be left high and dry. If people are happy to live with it then there just won’t be enough weight there for VW to do anything about it.