Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[Corradobrit]

That’s the problem. On a campsite, roof up. Off for lunch, bike ride, whatever else. Quick downpour arrives and you’ve potentially wrecked the upper bed / control panel / downstairs seats etc. Simply not good enough. Besides, it’s something which has been no problem with any of our previous Cali’s, being 2009, 2017 and 2019.

This. I didn't have to wait hours for the steady drip-drip to appear at 2 points. They started within 5 mins and I closed the poptop after another few mins as I'd seen enough. Had I left it I'm wondering how many other seams might have begun to leak. If I was away from the Cali the volume of water that a saturated poptop can transfer into the interior if multiple areas are affected could have been devastating. The unsuspecting Cali owner is going to get a very nasty surprise.

 

[Elmo3]

This. I didn't have to wait hours for the steady drip-drip to appear at 2 points. They started within 5 mins and I closed the poptop after another few mins as I'd seen enough. Had I left it I'm wondering how many other seams might have begun to leak. If I was away from the Cali the volume of water that a saturated poptop can transfer into the interior if multiple areas are affected could have been devastating. The unsuspecting Cali owner is going to get a very nasty surprise.

I wonder whether VW will be accepting consequential loss or damage? New seats if badly watermarked? Personal possessions damaged, even things like zonesleeps or duvalays etc? Laptop which gets soaked? The list is endless.

We’ve just had a night away with no rain and woken up to lovely sunshine. All good. There is rain forecast later this week so the roof will be left up. We really want it not to leak as it’s the best Cali we’ve had and are so looking forward to what’s in store. However, if it leaks, it doesn’t work, simple as that. In such a situation, do I have faith VW will come up with a reliable solution? Recent evidence suggests not.

 

[flying banana]

I was talking to my cousin earlier. I don’t think it’s a case that these pop tops aren’t waterproof. The issue is they aren’t water tight. There’s a big difference.

the old ones afre water tight though,well mine is (2016)

 

[markbrown83]

the old ones afre water tight though,well mine is (2016)

yeah, I mean the new ones aren't water tight. They are waterproof as far as a canvas can be (if they get fully saturated then water will leak through).

I was just differentiating between waterproof / watertight. The issues with the seams show it's not water tight.

I think we keep saying they aren't waterproof but I think what we should be saying is they aren't water tight.

For example, if the sealant on a shower needs replaced and water is leaking downstairs the shower is then not water tight but the tiles and sealant are still water proof.

 

[flying banana]

yeah, I mean the new ones aren't water tight. They are waterproof as far as a canvas can be (if they get fully saturated then water will leak through).

I was just differentiating between waterproof / watertight. The issues with the seams show it's not water tight.

I think we keep saying they aren't waterproof but I think what we should be saying is they aren't water tight.

For example, if the sealant on a shower needs replaced and water is leaking downstairs the shower is then not water tight but the tiles and sealant are still water proof.

it's just annoying to hear dealers spouting (pun) that they are only shower proof when the old ones were. this is just fobbing people off. whole saga is a massive disgrace and i would never upgrade to a 6.1

 

[Blackbrogue1962]

I’ve been following this thread for a while having taken delivery of our Cali Ocean in Jan 24 and which we are very much enjoying. I’ve not had an issue with our bellows to date, but while looking at the California on Tour app noted that in the technical info section it states that the water column gaiter is rated at >=300mm in accordance with EN 20 811. Given that a typical lightweight tent will have a fly sheet rated at 3000mm, it is clear to me that the bellows material is only designed to be ‘water-resistant’ and not what is typically considered ‘waterproof’. Given this statement of fact, I believe expecting a totally waterproof bellows under all conditions is just unrealistic. If VW meant them to be totally waterproof, the starting point would be to make them from a material with a much higher hydrostatic head.

 

[Corradobrit]

I’ve been following this thread for a while having taken delivery of our Cali Ocean in Jan 24 and which we are very much enjoying. I’ve not had an issue with our bellows to date, but while looking at the California on Tour app noted that in the technical info section it states that the water column gaiter is rated at >=300mm in accordance with EN 20 811. Given that a typical lightweight tent will have a fly sheet rated at 3000mm, it is clear to me that the bellows material is only designed to be ‘water-resistant’ and not what is typically considered ‘waterproof’. Given this statement of fact, I believe expecting a totally waterproof bellows under all conditions is just unrealistic. If VW meant them to be totally waterproof, the starting point would be to make them from a material with a much higher hydrostatic head.

You are quoting the water column rating for the old pre MY23 bellows + 300mm. The new double skinned version is 7500mm. Significantly better performer. But as we all know, the issue is not the fabric per se but the seams.

 

[Blackbrogue1962]

You are quoting the water column rating for the old pre MY23 bellows + 300mm. The new double skinned version is 7500mm. Significantly better performer. But as we all know, the issue is not the fabric per se but the seams.

The 300mm figure was from the current California on Tour app so presumed applied to the latest MY as it downloads the tech spec, interested to see where the 7500mm is quoted? I accept much leakage is from the seams and that this has been addressed, to an extent, by VW but I still have difficulty in believing that VW’s aim was to make a functionally ‘waterproof’ bellows that would surely require taped seams, waterproof zips and probably not 3 x windows and a zippable out front sections. All features which I imagine VW saw as being more attractive than designing a totally waterproof shell suited to the worst N European weather.

 

[Corradobrit]

The 300mm figure was from the current California on Tour app so presumed applied to the latest MY as it downloads the tech spec, interested to see where the 7500mm is quoted? I accept much leakage is from the seams and that this has been addressed, to an extent, by VW but I still have difficulty in believing that VW’s aim was to make a functionally ‘waterproof’ bellows that would surely require taped seams, waterproof zips and probably not 3 x windows and a zippable out front sections. All features which I imagine VW saw as being more attractive than designing a totally waterproof shell suited to the worst N European weather.

From the Calibord thread discussing the MY23 changes. That figure of 300mm was also on the California on Tour spec 2 years ago, so probbaly not updated for the new fabric.

 

[myvanrodney]

You are quoting the water column rating for the old pre MY23 bellows + 300mm. The new double skinned version is 7500mm. Significantly better performer. But as we all know, the issue is not the fabric per se but the seams.

Ye mines says 300mm too. Im very interested to hear where the 7500mm figure is quoted...

 

[Corradobrit]

Ye mines says 300mm too. Im very interested to hear where the 7500mm figure is quoted...

View attachment 120605

See above

 

[markbrown83]

The issue isn't waterproofing, it's water ingress. There's a massive difference.

From our use I'd say the canvas was pretty much waterproof, but water was getting in through stitching / seams.

Not being waterproof to me just means in heavy rain the canvas will just get so saturated that water will then come through the fabric. The ingress is happening through stitching / seams.

They've obviously sorted this on horizontal seams but the vertical ones seam (see what I did) to be the issue.

 

[myvanrodney]

See above

All I see is you stating it in your post. Where is this officially cited please?

 

[myvanrodney]

The issue isn't waterproofing, it's water ingress. There's a massive difference.

From our use I'd say the canvas was pretty much waterproof, but water was getting in through stitching / seams.

Not being waterproof to me just means in heavy rain the canvas will just get so saturated that water will then come through the fabric. The ingress is happening through stitching / seams.

They've obviously sorted this on horizontal seams but the vertical ones seam (see what I did) to be the issue.

Im just playing devils advocate.. The specification states a >=300mm for the whole 'gaiter'. This will include the seams. Id politely disagree - there is not a massive difference, but these terms are interchangeable. Waterproofing means no water ingress (saturated or not).

The play here though is not the specification, but the fit for purpose. A habitable space in a campervan should be habitable (dry) in a range of 'normal' weather conditions. In the case of those that leak, it is not.

 

[Corradobrit]

All I see is you stating it in your post. Where is this officially cited please?

The technical specs were quoted 2 years on Calibord. The waterhead measurement on the App is the same as back then. Take that info how you like. Could be hearsay, supposition or from an internal contact.
Irrespective of whether the new fabric is 25x more water resistant, the problems we are experiencing are down to its implimentation and how the seams/stitching were designed to work with the new fabric.

 

[RockinNRollin]

The play here though is not the specification, but the fit for purpose. A habitable space in a campervan should be habitable (dry) in a range of 'normal' weather conditions. In the case of those that leak, it is not.

And this is the critical bit; dealerships have been known to cite the manual entry regarding "strong winds or strong winds and driving rain". I get it; strong winds and a pop-top have some structural issues, but there's nothing in the manual about "persistent rain or persistent rain with light winds". The latter is common UK (and north/west European) weather and the vehicle should be expected to cope with such environments.

 

[Blackbrogue1962]

The only reason I added my comment to this thread was on discovering the bellows was made of material with a 300mm hydrostatic head - though noting this may have changed with the recent fabric. This confirmed to me that VW do not see the bellows as being ‘waterproof’ and hence their advice not to use in high winds and heavy rain. As an owner I do, of course, agree that water shouldn’t be dripping through the seams. My concern however is how watertight the bellows should be expected to be given they‘re not made from waterproof material. My suspicion is that the new fabric was primarily introduced as being more ‘light-proof’ i.e. darker. However, as this made it thicker, the original construction technique was less effective in preventing water ingress. This has been addressed by VW in the latest bellows by a refinement to the seam and, as noted, changes maybe required on all of the seams. From my perspective, if I have a small amount of leakage, I will incline to applying some type of seam sealent to the effected area. This to me, is preferable to replacing a factory installed bellows with one replaced by a local dealer with uncertain experience and quality control.

 

[RockinNRollin]

So based on the above that suggests the 02S had a HH of 300mm? That isn't much really, I don't know what exactly, but I'd guess maybe 15mph blown rain? We have been in a Cali (not ours) with an 02S with 40mph driven rain and other than some blowing through the roof vents, it was fine (both the fabric itself and the seams), so I don't think the HH of the fabric is the weak point at all. It will have a limit of course, but I expect the occupants of the upper bed will be doing a Mary Poppins by the time it's reached.

 

[Lequimper]

‘The only reason I added my comment to this thread was on discovering the bellows was made of material with a 300mm hydrostatic head - though noting this may have changed with the recent fabric. This confirmed to me that VW do not see the bellows as being ‘waterproof’ and hence their advice not to use in high winds and heavy rain. As an owner I do, of course, agree that water shouldn’t be dripping through the seams. My concern however is how watertight the bellows should be expected to be given they‘re not made from waterproof material. My suspicion is that the new fabric was primarily introduced as being more ‘light-proof’ i.e. darker. However, as this made it thicker, the original construction technique was less effective in preventing water ingress. This has been addressed by VW in the latest bellows by a refinement to the seam and, as noted, changes maybe required on all of the seams. From my perspective, if I have a small amount of leakage, I will incline to applying some type of seam sealent to the effected area. This to me, is preferable to replacing a factory installed bellows with one replaced by a local dealer with uncertain experience and quality control.

If VW want to hold the position that the bellows are not ‘waterproof’ then they should not be promoting the vehicle as one that sleeps four (the official current VW California website says it can sleep 2 adults and 2 children).

Such promotion leads people to have an entirely reasonable level of expectation of the weather protection provided by the bellows, compounded by the fact that previous versions clearly had better waterproofing properties, so it can be done.

 

[Blackbrogue1962]

Please don’t misinterpret my comments as being in defence of VW’s position on the protection afforded by the bellows. It’s just that, in my opinion, there’s a danger that all of the recent controversy has led to some people believing that the bellows should be 100% waterproof which I fear is unrealistic.

 

[Corradobrit]

Please don’t misinterpret my comments as being in defence of VW’s position on the protection afforded by the bellows. It’s just that, in my opinion, there’s a danger that all of the recent controversy has led to some people believing that the bellows should be 100% waterproof which I fear is unrealistic.

No one, in over a year this debacle has fermented, as suggested that is their expectation. I do expect the seams to not let in significant flow of water through capillary action. A few random drops here or there, is not going to fry the electronics, stain the seats, headliner or soak the bedding. Currently this is what the current and previous 03S is capable of doing even when there is no wind.

 

[Jimmylondon07]

From a water ingress perspective I expect them to perform at least on a par with the generation they’ve replaced, that’s about it from me.

 

[stationmaster]

Please don’t misinterpret my comments as being in defence of VW’s position on the protection afforded by the bellows. It’s just that, in my opinion, there’s a danger that all of the recent controversy has led to some people believing that the bellows should be 100% waterproof which I fear is unrealistic.

Always good to check in with reality.

From my reading of this thread, this is being done

 

[lohr500]

No one, in over a year this debacle has fermented, as suggested that is their expectation. I do expect the seams to not let in significant flow of water through capillary action. A few random drops here or there, is not going to fry the electronics, stain the seats, headliner or soak the bedding.

Agree with you 100% Corradobrit.
The odd drip here or there would be acceptable/tolerable in your average UK downpour.
But what I was seeing on the latest version bellows fitted to my £77k van earlier in the week was far from acceptable.
I am hoping for some proper and prolonged rain later in the week so I can establish the true extent of the problem.

 

[clarinetbcn]

The 300mm figure was from the current California on Tour app so presumed applied to the latest MY as it downloads the tech spec, interested to see where the 7500mm is quoted? I accept much leakage is from the seams and that this has been addressed, to an extent, by VW but I still have difficulty in believing that VW’s aim was to make a functionally ‘waterproof’ bellows that would surely require taped seams, waterproof zips and probably not 3 x windows and a zippable out front sections. All features which I imagine VW saw as being more attractive than designing a totally waterproof shell suited to the worst N European weather.

I’m surprised to see people setting the bar so low. My 2014 Beach has been in all night downpours in Scotland with the wind blowing and doesn’t leak a drop. It’s one thing when VW sells a product not fit for purpose, like the textiles on the seats which stain when you wave a closed bottle if water over them. It’s another when they take something that works (the 5.1 bellows) and turn it into something that doesn’t to cut costs (the 6.1 bellows, or even the new Multivan California with its borrowed car chassis resulting in bloated outside dimensions while being smaller than a 6.1 inside.)