Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[RockinNRollin]

There must be concern somewhere (either VW and/or their supply chain) about the use of waterproofing agents or else surely they'd just endorse it? It would be so much cheaper than repeatedly replacing bellows and given tent manufacturers have long said that periodic re-proofing is "normal" means that it's not like VW would be setting a precedent by having something that needs periodic treatment.

My guess is there's uncertainty about how the material/thread/sealants will interact with proofing agents, with the supplier (or the material supplier to the bellows manufacturer) refusing to give a cast iron guarantee that all will be well, i.e. "progress at your own risk" and VW don't want to take on that risk themselves, hence are unwilling to tell their customers to use such treatments.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

It's probably more of a legal / liability concern.

At the moment, the bellows have a failure rate and VW can claim that whilst higher than they'd like, all their parts can fail and when they do they are replaced under warranty.

If they issue instructions that it's necessary to use a waterproof agent, they are admitting the bellows aren't fit for purpose and that could open the floodgates (forgive the pun!) for claims??

 

[ArunAlec]

The tents all just say Polyester in their specs. The VW bellows are a much thicker gauge of material and feel quite different, but as to whether that’s polly cotton or some other variant I don’t know. Have tried googling at some length but no mention anywhere that I can find.

Noted that the VW sales brochure refers to them as “canvas bellows” - Google suggests that canvas is usually made of cotton. So maybe that does mean they are Polly Cotton. Guess the bigger question though is what is the thread made of, which for the reasons @P600BOO mentions that does seemingly need to be an expanding type if used in conjunction with polly cotton.

They probably use “canvas” in the same way as car manufacturers use “leather“, which doesn’t seem to have much relationship to “real leather“!

 

[Kayleigh]

If they issue instructions that it's necessary to use a waterproof agent, they are admitting the bellows aren't fit for purpose and that could open the floodgates (forgive the pun!) for claims??

You mean voluntarily admitting liability… a bit like they did in Dieselgate?

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

You mean voluntarily admitting liability… a bit like they did in Dieselgate?

Exactly - no comment

 

[lohr500]

Yep, this will definitely be a case of corporate liability risk mitigation over common sense.

 

[SusiBus]

If it's as simple as spraying on a fabric waterproofing agent, as it seems it might be, wouldn't it be cheaper and easier for VW to admit there is a problem. Wait for anyone who has a problem to refer it to them. Then just say, "Bring it in we will fix it", cut out all the ducking and diving, job done!
The cost to VW could still be deferred to the bellows manufacturer. Or does that require a degree of commonsense on behalf of VW?

 

[ArunAlec]

If it's as simple as spraying on a fabric waterproofing agent, as it seems it might be, wouldn't it be cheaper and easier for VW to admit there is a problem. Wait for anyone who has a problem to refer it to them. Then just say, "Bring it in we will fix it", cut out all the ducking and diving, job done!
The cost to VW could still be deferred to the bellows manufacturer. Or does that require a degree of commonsense on behalf of VW?

You’d have thought that they might have learnt something from the “rotting roof” epic!

 

[lohr500]

If it's as simple as spraying on a fabric waterproofing agent, as it seems it might be, wouldn't it be cheaper and easier for VW to admit there is a problem. Wait for anyone who has a problem to refer it to them. Then just say, "Bring it in we will fix it", cut out all the ducking and diving, job done!
The cost to VW could still be deferred to the bellows manufacturer. Or does that require a degree of commonsense on behalf of VW?

More or less. This is what I am discussing with Adrian at the Exec Office.

My suggestion is that if you have a leak and are prepared to try waterproofing then provide photographic evidence and either :

Book an appointment with your nearest VW Van Centre for them to apply the waterproofing while you wait, or apply the waterproofing yourself and save a journey.

The application only takes around 15 minutes, with an hour or so to dry on a warm day. Then apply a second coat and allow to dry before closing the roof.

For both options, the warranty will remain valid and the option to change the bellows in the future would remain if they start leaking again.

For me, photographic evidence should suffice and avoid the need to drive to a VW Van Centre for them to mess around with a hose pipe to confirm what is already known. Also, if they wet the bellows to test them, this will delay their ability to apply the waterproofing agent as it has to be applied to a dry surface.

To mitigate VW "opening the floodgates", approval to proceed would only be issued on a case by case basis once VW Exec Office have seen the photographic evidence.

If they would rather apply the waterproofing themselves and not allow a DIY application, then fine.
But they should recognise those of us who have forged ahead and found the solution for them by assuring us that our warranties will also be honoured!! As it stands, this will probably only be a handful of people I guess.

 

[stationmaster]

More or less. This is what I am discussing with Adrian at the Exec Office.

My suggestion is that if you have a leak and are prepared to try waterproofing then provide photographic evidence and either :

Book an appointment with your nearest VW Van Centre for them to apply the waterproofing while you wait, or apply the waterproofing yourself and save a journey.

The application only takes around 15 minutes, with an hour or so to dry on a warm day. Then apply a second coat and allow to dry before closing the roof.

For both options, the warranty will remain valid and the option to change the bellows in the future would remain if they start leaking again.

For me, photographic evidence should suffice and avoid the need to drive to a VW Van Centre for them to mess around with a hose pipe to confirm what is already known. Also, if they wet the bellows to test them, this will delay their ability to apply the waterproofing agent as it has to be applied to a dry surface.

To mitigate VW "opening the floodgates", approval to proceed would only be issued on a case by case basis once VW Exec Office have seen the photographic evidence.

If they would rather apply the waterproofing themselves and not allow a DIY application, then fine.
But they should recognise those of us who have forged ahead and found the solution for them by assuring us that our warranties will also be honoured!! As it stands, this will probably only be a handful of people I guess.

Great. Do you know when your discussions with Adrian will conclude?

 

[stationmaster]

I am quite new to this and don't have a Cali yet but picking up in a few months hopefully.

What are VW actually working on to fix this and has there been an attempt to log this with the Motor Ombudsman, surely with hundreds of problem vas in existence it might make them hurry with the fix.

VW are working on it (one, maybe two, revisions to the design to date), not sure the Ombudsman will speed things up. Maybe?

 

[lohr500]

Great. Do you know when your discussions with Adrian will conclude?

He was on leave last week.Due to call me this week. I'm not confident that common sense will prevail, but no harm in asking.

If anyone else is in discussion with Adrian and is of a similar mind regarding using a waterproofer, then please push for the same or a similar solution. Many voices saying the same thing might help sway the decision.

 

[stationmaster]

He was on leave last week.Due to call me this week. I'm not confident that common sense will prevail, but no harm in asking.

If anyone else is in discussion with Adrian and is of a similar mind regarding using a waterproofer, then please push for the same or a similar solution. Many voices saying the same thing might help sway the decision.

Thanks.

Brush up on your negotiating skills, Adrian has been tasked with this specific issue, so my guess is that he is an extremely competent corporate customer services professional.

There will be factors at play that we are not privy too, they will decide things. Common sense will only win through if it happens coincide with the goals of these other factors.

As customers, our best stance is to be pragmatic.

 

[Sheffield10]

Thanks.

Brush up on your negotiating skills, Adrian has been tasked with this specific issue, so my guess is that he is an extremely competent corporate customer services professional.

There will be factors at play that we are not privy too, they will decide things. Common sense will only win through if it happens coincide with the goals of these other factors.

As customers, our best stance is to be pragmatic.

Adrian is a nice guy who has been given the unenviable task of customer liaison with all us leakers. He listens (eventually!), passes on our questions and suggestions, sometimes gets some update information that he can pass back to us, and liaises with our dealers. He even has some pretty sensible ideas of his own on changes that would improve this whole situation. What he isn't, is a manager who has any influence on the decisions that are being made by VW UK / AG. I get the impression that no-one in VW UK has very much influence over what VW AG do. Adrian retires in the summer - I bet he can't wait!

If you can stomach the way VW are treating you and your £70K+ purchase, then a pragmatic stance is certainly the approach to take, if only for your own sanity. There are ways of avoiding exposing the bellows to the full force of a British 'summer', and the sterling development work being undertaken by @P600BOO and others on VW's behalf may well be the long term work around that frees us from having to keep locking horns with VW.

 

[stationmaster]

Adrian is a nice guy who has been given the unenviable task of customer liaison with all us leakers. He listens (eventually!), passes on our questions and suggestions, sometimes gets some update information that he can pass back to us, and liaises with our dealers. He even has some pretty sensible ideas of his own on changes that would improve this whole situation. What he isn't, is a manager who has any influence on the decisions that are being made by VW UK / AG. I get the impression that no-one in VW UK has very much influence over what VW AG do. Adrian retires in the summer - I bet he can't wait!

If you can stomach the way VW are treating you and your £70K+ purchase, then a pragmatic stance is certainly the approach to take, if only for your own sanity. There are ways of avoiding exposing the bellows to the full force of a British 'summer', and the sterling development work being undertaken by @P600BOO and others on VW's behalf may well be the long term work around that frees us from having to keep locking horns with VW.

Agree, Adrian is a straight up nice guy.

You are also right that a customer services roll to deal with our leaking bellows cannot be an easy job - Adrian will have earned his retirement for sure

My point was that there are lots of politics/legal stuff at play, so common sense may not get the look in it deserves - this will make the customer services roll less than easy, and the outcome we seek may be a little way off yet.

Being pragmatic, as you say, will help us stay sane.

I have added three towels to my camping gear and put them in specific places in the van to catch the worst of the leaks - this seems to help stop water getting into the electrics, so helps with the anxiety levels

 

[lohr500]

I am being very pragmatic about it.
If you step back from the emotion, then I don't think it is a big deal.

• The latest bellows leak . This has been acknowledged by Adrian.
• Should we expect better on a £70k + product, especially when there was a known problem with the earlier bellows design? Yes, we should.
• How many leak? Adrian will be aware of the number he is involved with and I suspect more reports will have landed in his inbox whilst he has been on leave. As more and more new owners use their vans, the number of failures will increase.
• Some of us have found a solution that seems to solve the problem. How long it works for is uncertain at this stage.
• The solution is not causing any short term damage and I am pretty confident there will be no long term damage either. If the solvent in the Aqua Tex or Fabsil was attacking the thread or material, then I think we would have seen signs of this by now.
• VW will either reassure me that my warranty is still valid, or they won't.
  • If they do and the bellows start leaking again in a few months, then hopefully by then VW will have their own solution.
  • If they won't honour my warranty and I do need new bellows, then I will either pursue matters with the Ombudsman/Small Claims Court, or just buy a set of replacement bellows and fit them myself once I know VW have fixed the problem. If it costs me £1000 to do this, then I will.

We want to use our van in the following months and I don't want to be trailing many miles to our nearest VW Van Centre for leak testing and for them to fit another set of 04S bellows.

Life is too short. I've been here before with a £50k Jeep Wrangler, wasting my take taking it to dealers for repairs that I could have done more quickly and effectively myself.

 

[tjeffery1]

Just as an update from me for the Cali Ocean I picked up on Saturday.

As (pessimistically) expected, the bellows do leak. Used a hose pipe attached to a step ladder to the front of the van. Medium mist setting (more than a mist but not blasting out). After about 20 minutes the drips started appearing on the vertical seams and window seam.

Didn’t bother checking sides as that was enough for me.

Reported to Breeze already, and considering options. No point replacing like for like, may as well wait for proper fix.

Pucer screen arriving this week. If we keep the van it’s unlikely I’ll treat with aqua tex, I would rather just use a screen if rain is forecast. But rejection on the cards too, discussion with my wife later tonight.

 

[mikefixex]

I just spoke to the dealer and my Cali has arrived in the UK.

He is adamant that the 04S bellows which will be on my van do not leak but experience on here suggests differently?

Can anyone with 04S confirm they have had leaks please?

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

• How many leak? Adrian will be aware of the number he is involved with and I suspect more reports will have landed in his inbox whilst he has been on leave. As more and more new owners use their vans, the number of failures will increase.

Remember it's only likely to be folks on this forum who's cases end up on Adrian's desk.

Most will just report and work with their selling dealer or local dealer. Escalations will mostly go to customercar@vw and not execoffice@vw

Germany will be aware of numbers exchanged based on supply and demand but whether that's shared with VW UK, who knows...

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

I just spoke to the dealer and my Cali has arrived in the UK.

He is adamant that the 04S bellows which will be on my van do not leak but experience on here suggests differently?

Can anyone with 04S confirm they have had leaks please?

Just read back through the last few pages of this thread and look at the survey.

I think you know the answer...

 

[mikefixex]

Just read back through the last few pages of this thread and look at the survey.

I think you know the answer...

which survey?

Also does anyone else have issues with the search function working on this?

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

which survey?

Also does anyone else have issues with the search function working on this?

https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/04s-bellow-review-poll.53322/

I think the site is pending an upgrade to fix the searches. The last 10 pages of this thread will tell you all you need to know

 

[lohr500]

• How many leak? Adrian will be aware of the number he is involved with and I suspect more reports will have landed in his inbox whilst he has been on leave. As more and more new owners use their vans, the number of failures will increase.

Remember it's only likely to be folks on this forum who's cases end up on Adrian's desk.

Most will just report and work with their selling dealer or local dealer. Escalations will mostly go to customercar@vw and not execoffice@vw

Germany will be aware of numbers exchanged based on supply and demand but whether that's shared with VW UK, who knows...

My understanding is that Adrian is the person in the UK handling the bellows issues. Given the apparent scale of the problem I would be amazed if there isn't an internal escalation process within VW UK to make him aware of all failure reports. I could be wrong.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

My understanding is that Adrian is the person in the UK handling the bellows issues. Given the apparent scale of the problem I would be amazed if there isn't an internal escalation process within VW UK to make him aware of all failure reports. I could be wrong.

Adrian on bellows; he has alot on his hands!:

 

[P600BOO]

Also, if it is polyester cotton, this explains the O4S revision of the non glued black flexible tape we have observed.

What black tape? Any pictures of it