Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[stationmaster]

I must be mad! We've just sold our old style canvas pop-top Cali and are hopefully getting a new one in June. It seems it will come complete with the latest long running roof saga. I was hoping that the latest O4S fabric would solve the problem, but it seems not.

Not mad...you're a VW believer

 

[stationmaster]

Yes, top VW Engineers have been working on this fix for 18 months and we are little further forward. I wish I had your optimism.

Optimism is easy...the opposite is so much harder

 

[stationmaster]

Not mad...you're a VW believer

Keep the faith SusiBus!

 

[Corradobrit]

I'm just happy VW are not a subcontractor for SpaceX, ESA or NASA. Although I do think they feel like it's rocket science.

 

[stationmaster]

I'm just happy VW are not a subcontractor for SpaceX, ESA or NASA. Although I do think they feel like it's rocket science.

There is probably a perfectly rational explanation...

Someone made a typo and ordered the wrong size needles, or the wrong grade of thread. I do stuff like that occasionally too, don't we all? ***Not serious - no answer required***

 

[OxonCalifornia]

I must be mad! We've just sold our old style canvas pop-top Cali and are hopefully getting a new one in June. It seems it will come complete with the latest long running roof saga. I was hoping that the latest O4S fabric would solve the problem, but it seems not.

Don’t worry - you are not alone .. mine is due for delivery in June too… I’m just going to be pragmatic as suggested and not let it ruin things.. it won’t be a surprise or let down as it’s all been covered with solutions in the short term so we can get out there and enjoy our vans

 

[This_one_goes_to_eleven]

Every time I hear heavy rain I pray for @lohr500 and his Aquatex.

This is what it has come to

 

[Kevin5658]

Pick mine up tomorrow ,week away next week , test bellows then topper at the ready.loved my last Cali will love this one looking forward to it come what may.

 

[myvanrodney]

Adrian called me this afternoon to follow up on our previous conversation.

He had received my email in which I presented the poll findings as of Thursday morning last week along with my suggestions for approving the use of Fabsil or Aqua Tex on a case by case basis.

Whilst he would not say how many new cases he has been advised of, he did indicate that there were not just a few and that nearly all of them are now relating to recent van deliveries.

I specifically requested him to escalate my suggestions and to seek approval from the relevant channels. I pointed out that in my opinion a sensible decision on this would create customer goodwill and could well avoid many warranty claims which would cost VW or their bellows supplier a significant amount.

I explained to Adrian that at the very least, Aqua Tex or Fabsil could provide a temporary fix for affected owners, giving VW more time to find an effective solution.

I also suggested that VW should approach the bellows manufacturer to establish if there are any reasons why Aqu Tex or Fabsil should NOT be used.

Our conversation was amicable and I hope productive.

Adrian said he would escalate my suggestions along with feedback that several of us have already used Aqua Tex or Fabsil with excellent results.

We have another call scheduled for next week.

I may be wasting my time trying to push water uphill, but it has to be worth a civil and sensible discussion.

As mentioned before, I would urge anyone else who is in discussion with Adrian to either tell him about your own success with Aqua Tex/ Fabsil or if you want to try it, push for official approval based on the reported success from others in the same boat.

Well done.
Did he acknowledge that the 04S was now also defective?
Did he provide any progress towards a new fix (how long does it take!)?
Id be much happier if VW or any of their minions (exec office or dealers) would at least provide some account of 'activity' behind that 'no unauthorised personnel' door. In reality, I fear they are stonewalling.

 

[OxonCalifornia]

Pick mine up tomorrow ,week away next week , test bellows then topper at the ready.loved my last Cali will love this one looking forward to it come what may.

Good luck for today and enjoy… some ironically appropriate weather this morning ?

 

[stationmaster]

Pick mine up tomorrow ,week away next week , test bellows then topper at the ready.loved my last Cali will love this one looking forward to it come what may.

Hope all goes well with your new van

 

[lohr500]

Well done.
Did he acknowledge that the 04S was now also defective?
Did he provide any progress towards a new fix (how long does it take!)?
Id be much happier if VW or any of their minions (exec office or dealers) would at least provide some account of 'activity' behind that 'no unauthorised personnel' door. In reality, I fear they are stonewalling.

Yes, there is recognition that they have a problem with the latest 04S bellows manufactured after the 09/11/24 date.

No information on progress towards a fix. Adrian was unable to tell me what steps are being taken to resolve the latest problem. However, rightly or wrongly I got the impression that they were still in data collection mode now, perhaps with some feedback to the sourcing team at VW.

I alluded to the fact that it could take months for the manufacturer to find a solution. Firstly to understand what the problem was. Then to find the solution. Then to produce AND TEST the new version. Then to manufacture in volume. Then to push new stock out to the central/regional VW parts distribution centres. Then for dealerships to order in replacements from the distribution centres. Adrian didn't disagree with my timeline. Because of the time frame I suggested to him that it was even more important to consider authorising the use of Aqua Tex or Fabsil as an interim solution which would allow affected owners to use their vans over the coming months.

Knowing how the corporate world operates, I don't think we will get full transparency on the scale of the issue or exactly what is being done to solve it.

I think only a collective demand for an interim solution to be approved without compromising our warranties is the way forward at this stage.

Anyone with affected bellows should be insisting their dealership brings Adrian into the discussion if this hasn't happened already. And if owners are in agreement to use Aqua Tex or Fabsil, then they too should be pushing Adrian to get authorisation from VW technical/Warranty to do so.

It shouldn't be left for owners to have the waterproofing discussion with their dealership. If this is the process, then the decision won't be consistent. I said this to Adrian.

Even if VW want to apply the waterproofing themselves at the dealerships,although not as convenient as a DIY application, that would be better than nothing. Ideally though they should offer both options. Application is not difficult and if applied sooner rather than later, the material will be factory fresh and clean, negating the need to clean the bellows first. On a wind free and warmish day it took me no more than 15 minutes to treat the inside and outside of all the seams and stitching. The Aqua Tex was dry after about 1 1/2 hours, allowing a second coat to be applied.

 

[P600BOO]

Yes, there is recognition that they have a problem with the latest 04S bellows manufactured after the 09/11/24 date.

No information on progress towards a fix. Adrian was unable to tell me what steps are being taken to resolve the latest problem. However, rightly or wrongly I got the impression that they were still in data collection mode now, perhaps with some feedback to the sourcing team at VW.

I alluded to the fact that it could take months for the manufacturer to find a solution. Firstly to understand what the problem was. Then to find the solution. Then to produce AND TEST the new version. Then to manufacture in volume. Then to push new stock out to the central/regional VW parts distribution centres. Then for dealerships to order in replacements from the distribution centres. Adrian didn't disagree with my timeline. Because of the time frame I suggested to him that it was even more important to consider authorising the use of Aqua Tex or Fabsil as an interim solution which would allow affected owners to use their vans over the coming months.

Knowing how the corporate world operates, I don't think we will get full transparency on the scale of the issue or exactly what is being done to solve it.

I think only a collective demand for an interim solution to be approved without compromising our warranties is the way forward at this stage.

Anyone with affected bellows should be insisting their dealership brings Adrian into the discussion if this hasn't happened already. And if owners are in agreement to use Aqua Tex or Fabsil, then they too should be pushing Adrian to get authorisation from VW technical/Warranty to do so.

It shouldn't be left for owners to have the waterproofing discussion with their dealership. If this is the process, then the decision won't be consistent. I said this to Adrian.

Even if VW want to apply the waterproofing themselves at the dealerships,although not as convenient as a DIY application, that would be better than nothing. Ideally though they should offer both options. Application is not difficult and if applied sooner rather than later, the material will be factory fresh and clean, negating the need to clean the bellows first. On a wind free and warmish day it took me no more than 15 minutes to treat the inside and outside of all the seams and stitching. The Aqua Tex was dry after about 1 1/2 hours, allowing a second coat to be applied.

3 weeks since I applied Aquatex to all seams and I can report that.
1. I cannot see any discolouration to the bellows fabric / seams.
2. The bellows fabric as not fallen apart.
3. All stitching lo9ks fine
4. The top and botton rubber seal has not disintegrated or gone soft.
5. Most importantly no water has come through any of the seams or fabric. They have been 100% waterproof in some very wet conditions.

 

[lohr500]

3 weeks since I applied Aquatex to all seams and I can report that.
1. I cannot see any discolouration to the bellows fabric / seams.
2. The bellows fabric as not fallen apart.
3. All stitching lo9ks fine
4. The top and botton rubber seal has not disintegrated or gone soft.
5. Most importantly no water has come through any of the seams or fabric. They have been 100% waterproof in some very wet conditions.

My findings exactly
Only difference being it is only a week or so ago that I applied the Aqua Tex.

I didn't treat the horizontal stitching where the material attaches to the top and bottom rubber seals because I saw no evidence of any leaking in those areas. But if I do start to see leaks there, I won't hesitate to apply Aqua Tex along those lines of stitching.

Thanks for the feedback and for being the 1st person (as far as I can recall) to try Aqua Tex on the latest 04S bellows.

I know @ParachuteMan has also been quick off the blocks and has used Fabsil with excellent results as well. So that makes at least three of us who have been prepared to try and find our own solution instead of waiting for VW to sort out the problem. Are there others?

 

[Off and running]

Yes, top VW Engineers have been working on this fix for 18 months and we are little further forward. I wish I had your optimism.

 

[stationmaster]

My findings exactly
Only difference being it is only a week or so ago that I applied the Aqua Tex.

I didn't treat the horizontal stitching where the material attaches to the top and bottom rubber seals because I saw no evidence of any leaking in those areas. But if I do start to see leaks there, I won't hesitate to apply Aqua Tex along those lines of stitching.

Thanks for the feedback and for being the 1st person (as far as I can recall) to try Aqua Tex on the latest 04S bellows.

I know @ParachuteMan has also been quick off the blocks and has used Fabsil with excellent results as well. So that makes at least three of us who have been prepared to try and find our own solution instead of waiting for VW to sort out the problem. Are there others?

Thanks for showing a lead

I am testing a few ideas - no results as yet, i'll post when concluded.

 

[Kayleigh]

I just spoke to the dealer and my Cali has arrived in the UK.

He is adamant that the 04S bellows which will be on my van do not leak but experience on here suggests differently?

Can anyone with 04S confirm they have had leaks please?

Sounds like Eurovans!!

 

[Kayleigh]

Just as an update from me for the Cali Ocean I picked up on Saturday.

As (pessimistically) expected, the bellows do leak. Used a hose pipe attached to a step ladder to the front of the van. Medium mist setting (more than a mist but not blasting out). After about 20 minutes the drips started appearing on the vertical seams and window seam.

Didn’t bother checking sides as that was enough for me.

Reported to Breeze already, and considering options. No point replacing like for like, may as well wait for proper fix.

Pucer screen arriving this week. If we keep the van it’s unlikely I’ll treat with aqua tex, I would rather just use a screen if rain is forecast. But rejection on the cards too, discussion with my wife later tonight.

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Those pinholes at the bottom of the bellows look no better than on the original 03S bellows being fitted over a year ago.

 

[Kayleigh]

I'm just happy VW are not a subcontractor for SpaceX, ESA or NASA. Although I do think they feel like it's rocket science.

Thank goodness they are not working on self-driving cars!!!

Autonomous Vehicles Levels & Regulations | Volkswagen UK

Discover the levels and regulations around autonomous vehicles, and what the law means for the future of autonomous driving and self driving.

www.volkswagen.co.uk

 

[RockinNRollin]

Those pinholes at the bottom of the bellows look no better than on the original 03S bellows being fitted over a year ago.

I'm not sure the pinholes = leaks, I've got pretty obvious pinholes in mine but nothing has come through (yet).

 

[Corradobrit]

I'm not sure the pinholes = leaks, I've got pretty obvious pinholes in mine but nothing has come through (yet).

They are not a good indicator for long term longevity though. Given the nature of the fabric this pinholes might expand to the point water infiltration does become a problem, especially with wind forcing the water through to the other side.

 

[Kayleigh]

VW have a novel idea for the latest Multivan Concept…

 

[Czmitche]

Today is the 30th day from when i picked up our new Ocean from Breeze in Poole - decision time if i am going to reject the vehicle.

Yesterday I repeated my test of the 04S pop top in rain 4 days after the last one - plenty of time for threads to swell etc The roof is still leaking badly along the front horizontal seam below the window. I looked closely at this window and noticed that the outer zipped flap is the fly screen and the inner flap is waterproof material. I’m sure it was the other way round on the T6 California? This design creates a pocket where water gathers once it goes through the fly screen and runs down the waterproof flap. This pocket is right above where the leak is occurring. I agree with a previous comment that VW is prioritising lifestyle zips and windows above a weatherproof design - club med versus UK variable weather.

I have reported the issue to both the dealer and executive office - i spoke to Adrian Burns yesterday. To summarise - their stance is that leaking 04S bellows are an issue which seems to apply to new vans only but there are many more new vans with 04S bellows being delivered that don’t leak than vans that leak.

Breeze said that only 25% of vans with the new 04S bellows that they have supplied have reported leaks. Adrian said that there has been a 100% success rate for O3S bellows being replaced by non-leaking O4S bellows. Adrian told me that the next step is for me to book my van into a VW van centre for testing. He was not able to tell me what the ‘testing’ would involve as he is not technical but he was sure there would be a proper documented process.

So there has been no acknowledgement that there is a design fault, the 04S bellows are still seen as the solution and no offer of VW providing an interim solution at their cost to make their faulty van usable i.e. VW providing a waterproofing treatment or pop-top cover at their cost and extending their warranty to include these things.They are not grasping the nettle - everything is about limiting their cost and not about solving the customers lack of product.

Rejection may seem over the top when a £24 treatment may work but this seems to be the only way i can make this VW’s issue (and cost) and not mine. A few years ago I bought a Westfalia club joker city at great cost. There was a problem with the pop top roof which in the end resulted in three different canvases being fitted, experts being flown in from Germany and a great deal of my money/time being spent going to and fro from the dealer. The dealer was great but after 2.5 years we still had a van with a substandard roof - in the end we sold it back to the dealer at a £10k loss. I didn’t spend £70k for a load of hassle.

The alternative to the official VW route of replacing the bellows is to go down the extra cover/waterproofing route - but this will be at my cost and risk. The VW position on warranty or even acceptance that there is a fundamental issue is not at all clear. If i go down the waterproofing route as opposed to playing ball and letting VW replace my bellows I’m sure that i will be on my own if there is an ingress of water which causes damage. I also believe that the stigma of 6.1 leaky bellows will have an impact on residuals. I am now retired so need to be very prudent in making financial decisions. Buying a new ‘real’ California used to be low risk with very little depreciation but this issue undermines that. If i reject the van and buy secondhand i will insist on a waterproof test before i buy a van.

A lot of us have been sucked in by the unbelievable deals available with the ’Happy Camper’ promotions - compared to the cost of buying a 2nd hand California. There is no such thing as a free lunch it appears.

Decisions, decisions. Which would be a lot easier if the majority of O4S owners could confirm the VW position that in the majority of cases the 04S bellows do not leak.

 

[Kayleigh]

Today is the 30th day from when i picked up our new Ocean from Breeze in Poole - decision time if i am going to reject the vehicle.

Yesterday I repeated my test of the 04S pop top in rain 4 days after the last one - plenty of time for threads to swell etc The roof is still leaking badly along the front horizontal seam below the window. I looked closely at this window and noticed that the outer zipped flap is the fly screen and the inner flap is waterproof material. I’m sure it was the other way round on the T6 California? This design creates a pocket where water gathers once it goes through the fly screen and runs down the waterproof flap. This pocket is right above where the leak is occurring. I agree with a previous comment that VW is prioritising lifestyle zips and windows above a weatherproof design - club med versus UK variable weather.

I have reported the issue to both the dealer and executive office - i spoke to Adrian Burns yesterday. To summarise - their stance is that leaking 04S bellows are an issue which seems to apply to new vans only but there are many more new vans with 04S bellows being delivered that don’t leak than vans that leak.

Breeze said that only 25% of vans with the new 04S bellows that they have supplied have reported leaks. Adrian said that there has been a 100% success rate for O3S bellows being replaced by non-leaking O4S bellows. Adrian told me that the next step is for me to book my van into a VW van centre for testing. He was not able to tell me what the ‘testing’ would involve as he is not technical but he was sure there would be a proper documented process.

So there has been no acknowledgement that there is a design fault, the 04S bellows are still seen as the solution and no offer of VW providing an interim solution at their cost to make their faulty van usable i.e. VW providing a waterproofing treatment or pop-top cover at their cost and extending their warranty to include these things.They are not grasping the nettle - everything is about limiting their cost and not about solving the customers lack of product.

Rejection may seem over the top when a £24 treatment may work but this seems to be the only way i can make this VW’s issue (and cost) and not mine. A few years ago I bought a Westfalia club joker city at great cost. There was a problem with the pop top roof which in the end resulted in three different canvases being fitted, experts being flown in from Germany and a great deal of my money/time being spent going to and fro from the dealer. The dealer was great but after 2.5 years we still had a van with a substandard roof - in the end we sold it back to the dealer at a £10k loss. I didn’t spend £70k for a load of hassle.

The alternative to the official VW route of replacing the bellows is to go down the extra cover/waterproofing route - but this will be at my cost and risk. The VW position on warranty or even acceptance that there is a fundamental issue is not at all clear. If i go down the waterproofing route as opposed to playing ball and letting VW replace my bellows I’m sure that i will be on my own if there is an ingress of water which causes damage. I also believe that the stigma of 6.1 leaky bellows will have an impact on residuals. I am now retired so need to be very prudent in making financial decisions. Buying a new ‘real’ California used to be low risk with very little depreciation but this issue undermines that. If i reject the van and buy secondhand i will insist on a waterproof test before i buy a van.

A lot of us have been sucked in by the unbelievable deals available with the ’Happy Camper’ promotions - compared to the cost of buying a 2nd hand California. There is no such thing as a free lunch it appears.

Decisions, decisions. Which would be a lot easier if the majority of O4S owners could confirm the VW position that in the majority of cases the 04S bellows do not leak.

Good luck with your decision. Sounds like you’ve had enough of dealing with issues like this from your previous experience. I was in the same position on day 30 and don’t have any regrets at all and it was certainly much better for my mental health! If you choose to reject, you can always buy a second hand T6.1 up to late 2022, as they still have the 02S bellows, or alternatively a trusty T6!

 

[tjeffery1]

Today is the 30th day from when i picked up our new Ocean from Breeze in Poole - decision time if i am going to reject the vehicle.

Yesterday I repeated my test of the 04S pop top in rain 4 days after the last one - plenty of time for threads to swell etc The roof is still leaking badly along the front horizontal seam below the window. I looked closely at this window and noticed that the outer zipped flap is the fly screen and the inner flap is waterproof material. I’m sure it was the other way round on the T6 California? This design creates a pocket where water gathers once it goes through the fly screen and runs down the waterproof flap. This pocket is right above where the leak is occurring. I agree with a previous comment that VW is prioritising lifestyle zips and windows above a weatherproof design - club med versus UK variable weather.

I have reported the issue to both the dealer and executive office - i spoke to Adrian Burns yesterday. To summarise - their stance is that leaking 04S bellows are an issue which seems to apply to new vans only but there are many more new vans with 04S bellows being delivered that don’t leak than vans that leak.

Breeze said that only 25% of vans with the new 04S bellows that they have supplied have reported leaks. Adrian said that there has been a 100% success rate for O3S bellows being replaced by non-leaking O4S bellows. Adrian told me that the next step is for me to book my van into a VW van centre for testing. He was not able to tell me what the ‘testing’ would involve as he is not technical but he was sure there would be a proper documented process.

So there has been no acknowledgement that there is a design fault, the 04S bellows are still seen as the solution and no offer of VW providing an interim solution at their cost to make their faulty van usable i.e. VW providing a waterproofing treatment or pop-top cover at their cost and extending their warranty to include these things.They are not grasping the nettle - everything is about limiting their cost and not about solving the customers lack of product.

Rejection may seem over the top when a £24 treatment may work but this seems to be the only way i can make this VW’s issue (and cost) and not mine. A few years ago I bought a Westfalia club joker city at great cost. There was a problem with the pop top roof which in the end resulted in three different canvases being fitted, experts being flown in from Germany and a great deal of my money/time being spent going to and fro from the dealer. The dealer was great but after 2.5 years we still had a van with a substandard roof - in the end we sold it back to the dealer at a £10k loss. I didn’t spend £70k for a load of hassle.

The alternative to the official VW route of replacing the bellows is to go down the extra cover/waterproofing route - but this will be at my cost and risk. The VW position on warranty or even acceptance that there is a fundamental issue is not at all clear. If i go down the waterproofing route as opposed to playing ball and letting VW replace my bellows I’m sure that i will be on my own if there is an ingress of water which causes damage. I also believe that the stigma of 6.1 leaky bellows will have an impact on residuals. I am now retired so need to be very prudent in making financial decisions. Buying a new ‘real’ California used to be low risk with very little depreciation but this issue undermines that. If i reject the van and buy secondhand i will insist on a waterproof test before i buy a van.

A lot of us have been sucked in by the unbelievable deals available with the ’Happy Camper’ promotions - compared to the cost of buying a 2nd hand California. There is no such thing as a free lunch it appears.

Decisions, decisions. Which would be a lot easier if the majority of O4S owners could confirm the VW position that in the majority of cases the 04S bellows do not leak.

Good luck in your decision. I don’t believe there is a right or wrong one, just what’s best for you.

I’m in the same boat but am on day 4 instead of 30.

For what it’s worth, I believe that all 4S bellows leak, but the people reporting that theirs don’t, is because they haven’t subjected their bellows to the “right” conditions (i.e. lengthy hosepipe test or overnight in heavy rain and wind).