Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[Kernowboy]

Adrian said that there has been a 100% success rate for O3S bellows being replaced by non-leaking O4S bellows.

You might want to point out to Adrian that he is mistaken. My leaky 03S bellows were replaced with 04S (post Nov 23) bellows last month - when asked to check the van before the driver set off to deliver it back to me (180 miles or so away) the dealer responded with a phone call 15 mins later saying that there was significant water ingress in to the van, dripping onto the seats etc. Not clear if water came in whilst roof was up or when lowered when wet, or most likely both. That was enough for me, van rejected just within the 6 month window. VW UK, and presumably therefore Adrian, are certainly aware as I know there were discussions between the dealer and them regarding the rejection.

 

[OxonCalifornia]

Today is the 30th day from when i picked up our new Ocean from Breeze in Poole - decision time if i am going to reject the vehicle.

Yesterday I repeated my test of the 04S pop top in rain 4 days after the last one - plenty of time for threads to swell etc The roof is still leaking badly along the front horizontal seam below the window. I looked closely at this window and noticed that the outer zipped flap is the fly screen and the inner flap is waterproof material. I’m sure it was the other way round on the T6 California? This design creates a pocket where water gathers once it goes through the fly screen and runs down the waterproof flap. This pocket is right above where the leak is occurring. I agree with a previous comment that VW is prioritising lifestyle zips and windows above a weatherproof design - club med versus UK variable weather.

I have reported the issue to both the dealer and executive office - i spoke to Adrian Burns yesterday. To summarise - their stance is that leaking 04S bellows are an issue which seems to apply to new vans only but there are many more new vans with 04S bellows being delivered that don’t leak than vans that leak.

Breeze said that only 25% of vans with the new 04S bellows that they have supplied have reported leaks. Adrian said that there has been a 100% success rate for O3S bellows being replaced by non-leaking O4S bellows. Adrian told me that the next step is for me to book my van into a VW van centre for testing. He was not able to tell me what the ‘testing’ would involve as he is not technical but he was sure there would be a proper documented process.

So there has been no acknowledgement that there is a design fault, the 04S bellows are still seen as the solution and no offer of VW providing an interim solution at their cost to make their faulty van usable i.e. VW providing a waterproofing treatment or pop-top cover at their cost and extending their warranty to include these things.They are not grasping the nettle - everything is about limiting their cost and not about solving the customers lack of product.

Rejection may seem over the top when a £24 treatment may work but this seems to be the only way i can make this VW’s issue (and cost) and not mine. A few years ago I bought a Westfalia club joker city at great cost. There was a problem with the pop top roof which in the end resulted in three different canvases being fitted, experts being flown in from Germany and a great deal of my money/time being spent going to and fro from the dealer. The dealer was great but after 2.5 years we still had a van with a substandard roof - in the end we sold it back to the dealer at a £10k loss. I didn’t spend £70k for a load of hassle.

The alternative to the official VW route of replacing the bellows is to go down the extra cover/waterproofing route - but this will be at my cost and risk. The VW position on warranty or even acceptance that there is a fundamental issue is not at all clear. If i go down the waterproofing route as opposed to playing ball and letting VW replace my bellows I’m sure that i will be on my own if there is an ingress of water which causes damage. I also believe that the stigma of 6.1 leaky bellows will have an impact on residuals. I am now retired so need to be very prudent in making financial decisions. Buying a new ‘real’ California used to be low risk with very little depreciation but this issue undermines that. If i reject the van and buy secondhand i will insist on a waterproof test before i buy a van.

A lot of us have been sucked in by the unbelievable deals available with the ’Happy Camper’ promotions - compared to the cost of buying a 2nd hand California. There is no such thing as a free lunch it appears.

Decisions, decisions. Which would be a lot easier if the majority of O4S owners could confirm the VW position that in the majority of cases the 04S bellows do not leak.

Just aquatex it / use a topper and go and enjoy your van ! Life’s too short

 

[Swislon]

So just tested my bellows. I can’t see whether 04S as can’t see a tag anywhere. Assuming 04S as purchased in January this year. it wasn’t a long test with the hose pipe but everywhere seemed ok until we got to the front zips of the big window. They leaked like a sieve. All the other zips have a storm flap but not the bottom half of the big window. Informed Tom at Breeze with video evidence.
That is a big design flaw in my mind I don’t see any point in replacing the bellows until that is fixed. We would never use that big window. Really is a weak point and surely design/marketing over function.
Fortunately I have invested in a Comfortz Cali wrap so will still go camping but it is a real p.i.t.a

 

[Jabberwocky]

Thanks.

Brush up on your negotiating skills, Adrian has been tasked with this specific issue, so my guess is that he is an extremely competent corporate customer services professional.

There will be factors at play that we are not privy too, they will decide things. Common sense will only win through if it happens coincide with the goals of these other factors.

As customers, our best stance is to be pragmatic.

Adrian? Yes, he is extremely capable and has some clear goals. What is interesting about that is he, at times, showed that these goals were not necessarily aligned with the dealers in mind. He was the person I negotiated with when I rejected my Cali back in November '23.

 

[myvanrodney]

Yes, there is recognition that they have a problem with the latest 04S bellows manufactured after the 09/11/24 date.

No information on progress towards a fix. Adrian was unable to tell me what steps are being taken to resolve the latest problem. However, rightly or wrongly I got the impression that they were still in data collection mode now, perhaps with some feedback to the sourcing team at VW.

I alluded to the fact that it could take months for the manufacturer to find a solution. Firstly to understand what the problem was. Then to find the solution. Then to produce AND TEST the new version. Then to manufacture in volume. Then to push new stock out to the central/regional VW parts distribution centres. Then for dealerships to order in replacements from the distribution centres. Adrian didn't disagree with my timeline. Because of the time frame I suggested to him that it was even more important to consider authorising the use of Aqua Tex or Fabsil as an interim solution which would allow affected owners to use their vans over the coming months.

Knowing how the corporate world operates, I don't think we will get full transparency on the scale of the issue or exactly what is being done to solve it.

I think only a collective demand for an interim solution to be approved without compromising our warranties is the way forward at this stage.

Anyone with affected bellows should be insisting their dealership brings Adrian into the discussion if this hasn't happened already. And if owners are in agreement to use Aqua Tex or Fabsil, then they too should be pushing Adrian to get authorisation from VW technical/Warranty to do so.

It shouldn't be left for owners to have the waterproofing discussion with their dealership. If this is the process, then the decision won't be consistent. I said this to Adrian.

Even if VW want to apply the waterproofing themselves at the dealerships,although not as convenient as a DIY application, that would be better than nothing. Ideally though they should offer both options. Application is not difficult and if applied sooner rather than later, the material will be factory fresh and clean, negating the need to clean the bellows first. On a wind free and warmish day it took me no more than 15 minutes to treat the inside and outside of all the seams and stitching. The Aqua Tex was dry after about 1 1/2 hours, allowing a second coat to be applied.

Thanks so much for taking the time to share this.

I have decided on balance that sitting tight (with a trusty pucascreen) is no longer the right strategy for me.

This is going to be a long slog (as you suggest too) and I have been told that the official line from VW is that replacement bellows is the first step to fixing the faulty 03S version bellows.

I figure I am going to have to accept VW's MO for repair at some point before I can push back that it is ineffective, and this is all assuming the replacement doesn't actually fix our van. There is still a remote possibility that some 04S versions do NOT leak (and this forum is unintentionally but coincidentally reporting manufacturing failures).

Im mindful that time is marching on and notwithstanding that I reported this issue to the dealer at around the 3 month mark (well within the 6 month 'latent defect' period), time is I'm sure not on my side if I choose to be somewhat acquiescent.

Just another perspective and approach for those that are choosing to 'sit it out'...

Thanks again for your hard work and time to keep the forum updated with your experiences..

 

[stationmaster]

Adrian? Yes, he is extremely capable and has some clear goals. What is interesting about that is he, at times, showed that these goals were not necessarily aligned with the dealers in mind. He was the person I negotiated with when I rejected my Cali back in November '23.

Adrian seems to be a sound guy,

Good to hear he was able to help you reach an outcome you were happy with when you rejected your California

 

[Blackbrogue1962]

So just tested my bellows. I can’t see whether 04S as can’t see a tag anywhere. Assuming 04S as purchased in January this year. it wasn’t a long test with the hose pipe but everywhere seemed ok until we got to the front zips of the big window. They leaked like a sieve. All the other zips have a storm flap but not the bottom half of the big window. Informed Tom at Breeze with video evidence.
That is a big design flaw in my mind I don’t see any point in replacing the bellows until that is fixed. We would never use that big window. Really is a weak point and surely design/marketing over function.
Fortunately I have invested in a Comfortz Cali wrap so will still go camping but it is a real p.i.t.a

This is a point I’ve tried to make a few times. If you look at the California Concept it’s evident that VW place the more attractive 3 x windows and a zip out panel etc ahead of a functionally waterproof bellows - which let’s face it would have no windows and as few seams as possible. our T6.1 is my first Cali, but looking back at older T5s etc its clear that the older bellows had fewer windows, hence fewer seams and therefore more waterproof. I agree that if you prioritise weatherproofness a Cali wrap is the only solution.

 

[Czmitche]

The thing that has been puzzling me about the official VW line about the majority of 04S bellows not leaking, but admitting that some do, is why there would be any variation in vans made in the same factory using the same bellows material.

It turns out that at times of peak production some of the pop top fitting is outsourced to a third party in Germany and this leads to variation in the actual size of the bellows. Normally the front and rear canvas heights are 103/27cm (ish) but from Jan 2023 this can vary by up to 10cm with 107/32cm (ish) being most common. There is no way of knowing what size your late 6.1 bellows actually are without measuring them. You need to know this dimension if you are ordering a Pucer screen.

My leaking bellows are 27cm high at the rear.

This thread seems to have blown hot again with the bulge in March (24 plate) vans being delivered - it is likely that this bulge would have required the intervention of the 3rd party fitter to meet demand. This could all be coincidence of course and only VW will know if there is a correlation between leaking vans and the place of fitting.

I actually spoke to Darren today who owns Pucer screens and although he supplies covers for all types of van pop top he has been mainly selling covers for late T6.1 - 60 - in the last three months alone. It would appear that many owners are finding their own solution to the leak as opposed to going down the VW route of dealer testing and bellow replacement. This is a pragmatic way forward and we should be pushing VW to pick up the cost as it makes the van usable in the short term (i'm hearing that on a case by case basis that VW is doing this if pushed).

 

[Andy C Berks.]

Today is the 30th day from when i picked up our new Ocean from Breeze in Poole - decision time if i am going to reject the vehicle.

Yesterday I repeated my test of the 04S pop top in rain 4 days after the last one - plenty of time for threads to swell etc The roof is still leaking badly along the front horizontal seam below the window. I looked closely at this window and noticed that the outer zipped flap is the fly screen and the inner flap is waterproof material. I’m sure it was the other way round on the T6 California? This design creates a pocket where water gathers once it goes through the fly screen and runs down the waterproof flap. This pocket is right above where the leak is occurring. I agree with a previous comment that VW is prioritising lifestyle zips and windows above a weatherproof design - club med versus UK variable weather.

I have reported the issue to both the dealer and executive office - i spoke to Adrian Burns yesterday. To summarise - their stance is that leaking 04S bellows are an issue which seems to apply to new vans only but there are many more new vans with 04S bellows being delivered that don’t leak than vans that leak.

Breeze said that only 25% of vans with the new 04S bellows that they have supplied have reported leaks. Adrian said that there has been a 100% success rate for O3S bellows being replaced by non-leaking O4S bellows. Adrian told me that the next step is for me to book my van into a VW van centre for testing. He was not able to tell me what the ‘testing’ would involve as he is not technical but he was sure there would be a proper documented process.

So there has been no acknowledgement that there is a design fault, the 04S bellows are still seen as the solution and no offer of VW providing an interim solution at their cost to make their faulty van usable i.e. VW providing a waterproofing treatment or pop-top cover at their cost and extending their warranty to include these things.They are not grasping the nettle - everything is about limiting their cost and not about solving the customers lack of product.

Rejection may seem over the top when a £24 treatment may work but this seems to be the only way i can make this VW’s issue (and cost) and not mine. A few years ago I bought a Westfalia club joker city at great cost. There was a problem with the pop top roof which in the end resulted in three different canvases being fitted, experts being flown in from Germany and a great deal of my money/time being spent going to and fro from the dealer. The dealer was great but after 2.5 years we still had a van with a substandard roof - in the end we sold it back to the dealer at a £10k loss. I didn’t spend £70k for a load of hassle.

The alternative to the official VW route of replacing the bellows is to go down the extra cover/waterproofing route - but this will be at my cost and risk. The VW position on warranty or even acceptance that there is a fundamental issue is not at all clear. If i go down the waterproofing route as opposed to playing ball and letting VW replace my bellows I’m sure that i will be on my own if there is an ingress of water which causes damage. I also believe that the stigma of 6.1 leaky bellows will have an impact on residuals. I am now retired so need to be very prudent in making financial decisions. Buying a new ‘real’ California used to be low risk with very little depreciation but this issue undermines that. If i reject the van and buy secondhand i will insist on a waterproof test before i buy a van.

A lot of us have been sucked in by the unbelievable deals available with the ’Happy Camper’ promotions - compared to the cost of buying a 2nd hand California. There is no such thing as a free lunch it appears.

Decisions, decisions. Which would be a lot easier if the majority of O4S owners could confirm the VW position that in the majority of cases the 04S bellows do not leak.

Noticed you are based in Reading, and just in case this helps. I didn’t source my van through Marshall’s in Reading, but because they are relatively local to me I have used them for the warranty work replacing my bellows, twice. First time with another set of 03S, and then the current 04S. Both times they agreed to the replacement without having the van in to test beforehand. The first time they accepted a short video of the leaks from me, the second time they didn’t even want a video as it was widely known at that point that 03S is a failed part.
They did a good, clean job of the replacement bellows both times and thus far my 04S haven’t leaked - albeit it does kind of feel it may be inevitable (can of Aqua Tex on order, and already have a topper but not used it yet).
Just thought would flag this to you as it may save you the hassle of a journey just to get them tested. Also both times they fitted the new bellows in one day, where most other dealers want them for two days.
I should add that on the first visit somehow the drivers door got chipped, which was very annoying, but in fairness they did have it back in to repair in their own body shop.
Not used them for anything else yet, but from experience to date I see no reason that I would go elsewhere.

 

[ParachuteMan]

My findings exactly
Only difference being it is only a week or so ago that I applied the Aqua Tex.

I didn't treat the horizontal stitching where the material attaches to the top and bottom rubber seals because I saw no evidence of any leaking in those areas. But if I do start to see leaks there, I won't hesitate to apply Aqua Tex along those lines of stitching.

Thanks for the feedback and for being the 1st person (as far as I can recall) to try Aqua Tex on the latest 04S bellows.

I know @ParachuteMan has also been quick off the blocks and has used Fabsil with excellent results as well. So that makes at least three of us who have been prepared to try and find our own solution instead of waiting for VW to sort out the problem. Are there others?

Hi all. Currently in Bolton Abbey campsite. Day 2 of medium rain and quite high winds. Some observations.

1. I’ve Fabsiled the fabic, the horizontal seams, and Aquatexed the vertical seams. The overall look and feel is very good. Frustratingly, I wasn’t able to field trial at home so (cowardly) Ive used my Comfortz Calitopper here on site as I don’t want to troop trial on site in case there are issues - but I’m still very confident all DIY proofing works fine.

2. Incidentally, the wind is now gusting 45mph. The topper is just taking it all - so it’s not just waterproof, so I have no wind issues with the bellows now being covered. So there are other topper advantages.

3. Of concern. if Adrian Burns is retiring in Summer (and why not ?) and 6.1 ends in June, who is going to be own this on our behalf and why will VW be interested as they focus on T7 ?

With my Fabsil and Aquatex (thanks @P600BOO) plus home made and professional toppers, I’m more happy just to use my Cali as-is. I know VW should be demanded to fulfil warranty, but I’m getting to the stage where I want to use my Cali rather than arm wrestle over several months. This is personal opinion - not a recommendation !

 

[Czmitche]

Noticed you are based in Reading, and just in case this helps. I didn’t source my van through Marshall’s in Reading, but because they are relatively local to me I have used them for the warranty work replacing my bellows, twice. First time with another set of 03S, and then the current 04S. Both times they agreed to the replacement without having the van in to test beforehand. The first time they accepted a short video of the leaks from me, the second time they didn’t even want a video as it was widely known at that point that 03S is a failed part.
They did a good, clean job of the replacement bellows both times and thus far my 04S haven’t leaked - albeit it does kind of feel it may be inevitable (can of Aqua Tex on order, and already have a topper but not used it yet).
Just thought would flag this to you as it may save you the hassle of a journey just to get them tested. Also both times they fitted the new bellows in one day, where most other dealers want them for two days.
I should add that on the first visit somehow the drivers door got chipped, which was very annoying, but in fairness they did have it back in to repair in their own body shop.
Not used them for anything else yet, but from experience to date I see no reason that I would go elsewhere.

Thanks Andy - i bought my last van from Liverpool van centre (california chris) but Marshalls were very good with warranty work - good van centre. I have now moved to Ilfracombe - just updated my profile - so will be approaching Exeter for support.

 

[andyinluton]

For what it’s worth, I believe that all 4S bellows leak, but the people reporting that theirs don’t, is because they haven’t subjected their bellows to the “right” conditions (i.e. lengthy hosepipe test or overnight in heavy rain and wind).

You believe wrong!

40+ nights away, 16 months in, how many more nights away do I need before I've had the right conditions? My MY 2023 bellows do not leak except for water blown through the mesh vent when the rain has been horizontal.

My MY2015 didnt either, neither did my MY2020. In fact the only california Ive had with a roof leak was my GC600 & that was around the roof mounted reversing camera.

 

[andyinluton]

looking back at older T5s etc its clear that the older bellows had fewer windows, hence fewer seams and therefore more waterproof. I agree that if you prioritise weatherproofness a Cali wrap is the only solution.

Many of the early posts when this forum started were about leaky roofs they were T5 at the time, some T5.1 leaked, In early T6.1 days Campervan time - I think they are called currently, did a blog travelling round the western isles & had a video of water basically coming in all over.

Leaky california roofs are nothing new, perhaps peoples expectations have changed somewhat, & ten years ago people would have shrugged their shoulders & just bought some fabsil & got on with it.

 

[Blackbrogue1962]

Many of the early posts when this forum started were about leaky roofs they were T5 at the time, some T5.1 leaked, In early T6.1 days Campervan time - I think they are called currently, did a blog travelling round the western isles & had a video of water basically coming in all over.

Leaky california roofs are nothing new, perhaps peoples expectations have changed somewhat, & ten years ago people would have shrugged their shoulders & just bought some fabsil & got on with it.

That’s my sense too. When you have a situation where people are rigging up sprinkler systems to test their bellows it’s obvious that there’ll be more issues reported. That’s not to deny that the new 03S bellows with the double layer fabric did have a problem with seam construction, but I‘m not sure the older bellows were as watertight as many claim.

 

[This_one_goes_to_eleven]

Maybe expectations have risen in line with prices.

 

[Corradobrit]

Leaky california roofs are nothing new, perhaps peoples expectations have changed somewhat, & ten years ago people would have shrugged their shoulders & just bought some fabsil & got on with it.

Well count yourself lucky. When you have leaky bellows and the saturated fabric dumps enough water to soak the seats when the poptop is closed, you'd be singing a different tune. The new bellows are a defective and deficient design. VW would love it if we shrugged our shoulders. Fact is a large number are not fit for purpose. Fabsil is not authorised by VW and until it is, then its use should be carefully considered.

 

[GillianC]

That’s my sense too. When you have a situation where people are rigging up sprinkler systems to test their bellows it’s obvious that there’ll be more issues reported. That’s not to deny that the new 03S bellows with the double layer fabric did have a problem with seam construction, but I‘m not sure the older bellows were as watertight as many claim.

They absolutely are! I had a 2014 SE now a 2018 Ocean Edition and not a drop of water through the roof on either. I am horrified at this saga which is totally unacceptable.
If it were me I would be rejecting any vehicle that leaked. As a solo traveler putting a topper on every time there might be rain forecast is not an option. Shocking.

 

[andyinluton]

Well count yourself lucky. When you have leaky bellows and the saturated fabric dumps enough water to soak the seats when the poptop is closed, you'd be singing a different tune. The new bellows are a defective and deficient design. VW would love it if we shrugged our shoulders. Fact is a large number are not fit for purpose. Fabsil is not authorised by VW and until it is, then its use should be carefully considered.

I’m not saying some are not faulty - I am just getting fed up with being told that all are faulty & the only reason mine doesn’t leak is because I haven’t used it in the right conditions.

I’ve had enough problems with calis thanks- my previous T6.1 was one of the first with the sagging roof needing a replacement pump. So I’ve been there done that with the whole vw complaints procedure etc

 

[stationmaster]

An individuals take on this is going to be influenced by many things: their use case, their psychology, finances...all sorts of stuff.

Objectively, it looks like there is an issue with the new style bellows. Understandably, many are getting impatient about all sorts of aspects of the matter.

Sure everyone agrees, it will be good when VW get it sorted

 

[lohr500]

Isn't the issue now that most of us who have recently taken delivery of our vans have the latest generation post 09/11/23 manufacture date 04S bellows fitted.

And it is leaks on these vans with the latest bellow design that are now being reported here on an almost daily basis.

At some point, way back in this thread someone mentioned VW had assured them that these latest 09/11/23 bellows were now finally sorted.

Perhaps the failure rate on the earlier 04S bellows wasn't as high and therefore you stood a reasonable chance of getting a set that worked. if you were unfortunate to get a bad set and these were replaced with another set produced before the 09/11/23, your chances of a second failure would statistically be low.

Am I correct in saying that if the probability of failure was say 1:20 (5%) , then the chance of two failures in succession would be 1:400 (0.25%) ? If my logic is correct you would be very unlucky to get two failures in a row, even with a 5% failure rate.

Certainly when I had the initial call with Adrian, he indicated that he had only received one or two reports of leakage on vans fitted with replacement 04S bellows. But that was before the latest wave of reported failures.

My gut feel is that the latest 09/11/23 version which is supposed to be better, is actually worse.

In my case and also looking at the photos from others with leaks on the latest design bellows I can't believe such a level of water ingress would have been considered acceptable on the earlier T5 and T6 vans.


As for rigging up sprinkler systems. If you had just taken delivery of your £70k + new van and were aware that there had been quite a few reports of leaking roofs, to the extent that some owners had rejected their vans, wouldn't you want to know sooner rather than later if your van was affected?

I know I would rather find out with the van sat on my drive instead of discovering a problem when on a camping trip where I was dependant on using the van with the roof raised.

 

[Czmitche]

That’s my sense too. When you have a situation where people are rigging up sprinkler systems to test their bellows it’s obvious that there’ll be more issues reported. That’s not to deny that the new 03S bellows with the double layer fabric did have a problem with seam construction, but I‘m not sure the older bellows were as watertight as many claim.

I have not rigged up a sprinkler system - just put the 04S roof up twice in light rain since picking it up and after a couple of hours found water pooling on the roof above the control panel and near the roof lighting switches and the passenger seat soaking wet. Prior to this latest van i have owned an Ocean for three years and a club joker city for another three - in both vans i have camped a lot in spring and autumn in all parts of the British Isles often in heavy rain and never experienced anthing like this.

 

[Steve1]

I’m not saying some are not faulty - I am just getting fed up with being told that all are faulty & the only reason mine doesn’t leak is because I haven’t used it in the right conditions.

I’ve had enough problems with calis thanks- my previous T6.1 was one of the first with the sagging roof needing a replacement pump. So I’ve been there done that with the whole vw complaints procedure etc

That's what internet forums are for, same as being told all 180 engines will destroy themselves soon.

 

[stationmaster]

I have not rigged up a sprinkler system - just put the 04S roof up twice in light rain since picking it up and after a couple of hours found water pooling on the roof above the control panel and near the roof lighting switches and the passenger seat soaking wet. Prior to this latest van i have owned an Ocean for three years and a club joker city for another three - in both vans i have camped a lot in spring and autumn in all parts of the British Isles often in heavy rain and never experienced anthing like this.

You know what you know. I had a 2013 and a 2018 Ocean, no roof worries.

I was down your way a while back, Lee Bay. Amazing

 

[RockinNRollin]

That's what internet forums are for, same as being told all 180 engines will destroy themselves soon.

Nail on the head here really; as I've said before, there are generally two types who use forums - avid enthusiasts (who will likely have above average attention to detail) and those with a problem with their vehicle/dog/sourdough or whatever the forum is. The avid ones tend to be outnumbered in membership by the sporadic visitors with issues (no doubt analysis on this forum could be done by counting how many users have sub 20 posts vs those with over 20). As a result, anything like this you'll get those with the problem (and in this case, it's a fairly long term issue so some of those "I have a problem" may have ended up sticking around to watch developments) piling in on any post with their experience, while the avid ones are paying well above average to their own vehicles. The "old old" bellows (T6 and earlier? or T5? Not sure) which were canvas I believe wicked water through like an old cotton tent - it didn't pour into the cabin, but if your bedding touched it on a wet night then it'd get damp. To my knowledge, people got on with that without too much grumbling? Now I'm not disputing some 04S bellows are leaking and I'm definitely not disputing many 03S bellows are leaking, but I am disputing that "they will all leak eventually", or at least until I see evidence that supports that. There seems to be evidence that some are working fine (and so far, mine is in that category although time will tell!). If that has anything to do with date of manufacture, installation, extremeness of weather or some other variable, I don't know.

Bottom line for me is I will use it in the real world and if it continues to hold out the weather, then I'm happy.

 

[P600BOO]

View attachment 121669View attachment 121670

That is not tape, it's the mosquito netting.
I Have had a good look at my fabric today and the front zip has a film laminated to the back of it.