Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[Kayleigh]

I have also bailed (excuse the pun) and bought a Westfalia Club Joker. I didn't even have to threaten Consumer Protection rights, Breeze simply agreed to buy my Ocean back at the price I paid 4 months ago. I had the Ocean booked in locally for a bellows replacement but had no confidence that the current C variant would not leak. We had been looking at the Club Joker for a while and thought that if we ever wanted more on-board facilities such as a bathroom and hot water and be prepared to have a high top as our only vehicle, then the Joker would be the one to suit us. This leak problem brought our decision forward a year or two. Hope we like the Westfalia as much or more than the Cali and going away tomorrow for 4 nights to find out.

I can perfectly understand your logic. To a degree it does sound like you also realised that the Ocean was not the right vehicle for yourselves, as you only had it 4 months but have already been looking at the Joker for a while. Or did you actually purchase the Cali with the intention of changing in one year?

From what I have read on the forum, Breeze seem a very good dealership to deal with, and your experience proves that. I hope you enjoy the Club Joker
I for one think they are fabulous and if I ever purchase a fixed roof camper it would be top of my list!

 

[Jabberwocky]

Yeah. Within 30 days a faulty vehicle can be rejected with a full refund.

Beyond that and less than 6 months the dealer has 1 opportunity to fix. If they don't you can reject.

In that period there's a negotiation regards usage which can be problematical. The basis of 45p per mile might be considered reasonable but if the dealer wants you to pay 95p per mile and you want to pay 10p per mile then that would need a court to decide...

Thank you for the summary very useful. Do you happen to know where the 45p/mile came from?

 

[Kayleigh]

Thank you for the summary very useful. Do you happen to know where the 45p/mile came from?

I would be arguing that no mileage charge should be applied as the faulty bellows has prevented you from using the vehicle for its intended purpose.

Raise a case with The Motor Ombudsman if you are unhappy with the proposal from the dealer.

 

[ivan & jill]

I can perfectly understand your logic. To a degree it does sound like you also realised that the Ocean was not the right vehicle for yourselves, as you only had it 4 months but have already been looking at the Joker for a while. Or did you actually purchase the Cali with the intention of changing in one year?

From what I have read on the forum, Breeze seem a very good dealership to deal with, and your experience proves that. I hope you enjoy the Club Joker
I for one think they are fabulous and if I ever purchase a fixed roof camper it would be top of my list!

Hi, Kayleigh, I agree that Breeze are a very good van centre, this was the second Ocean we had bought through them. We have had transporter based campervans for a long time through T4, T5, T6 and T6.1. Also our current Club Joker is a T6.1 based camper. With Transporters not being manufactured from next summer we will all need to look for new options for the future. I have not given up on VW yet and told Tom at Breeze to keep me on their contact list for future California variants. Hope to have the chance to own an all-electric fantastic Cali in the not too distant future.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Thank you for the summary very useful. Do you happen to know where the 45p/mile came from?

Isn't that like the accepted non taxable expense rate for a company car? Maybe it's 40p and not 45p.

But ultimately as Kayleigh says you might argue you haven't been able to use it for it's purpose, if that was mainly camping...

 

[Jabberwocky]

It’s up to the dealer if they want a deduction due to usage and to ask for a mileage charge from you. I’ve read previously somewhere that 20p/mile is reasonable, and that seems quite fair to me. 45p/mile seems unreasonable. If your experience has been particularly bad I think you could argue that no charge should be paid. It very much depends on the dealer how this is handled and how strongly you feel about it given your experience. From the dealer’s perspective they have to also consider any review you may leave them so I think it’s in their interests to treat you well if you’ve had a bad experience, though some dealers may not see it this way. You need to write a letter to the dealer saying that you’re exercising your right to reject the vehicle under the consumer rights act and state the reasons why. You must then not use it again and they have to collect it from you. That’s the legal process, though for us with Breeze it was less formal than this and we agreed by phone it would be going back, followed by prompt collection by them. Always a good idea to follow up any phone call with an email though stating what was agreed so you still have a record in writing.

Thank you for yr reply. So far the dealer has been very reasonable, I've also got a "I understand why you might want to reject your Cali......" from VWCC. I have not made my final decision about rejecting or going with another option as I have not got to the 10p v 45p/m discussion. That should take place sometime this coning week.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

I would be arguing that no mileage charge should be applied as the faulty bellows has prevented you from using the vehicle for its intended purpose.

Raise a case with The Motor Ombudsman if you are unhappy with the proposal from the dealer.

Indeed but a lot of these things can take a long time and I for example wouldn't necessarily want the dealer potentially holding onto 70k of my cash whilst we argue over the use payment.

A court case for example I think would take more than a year...

Maybe VWCV can help with stuff like that, didn't they step in with yours somehow?

 

[Jabberwocky]

I would be arguing that no mileage charge should be applied as the faulty bellows has prevented you from using the vehicle for its intended purpose.

Raise a case with The Motor Ombudsman if you are unhappy with the proposal from the dealer.

Thank you for this suggestion, had not thought of that route.

 

[Kayleigh]

Indeed but a lot of these things can take a long time and I for example wouldn't necessarily want the dealer potentially holding onto 70k of my cash whilst we argue over the use payment.

A court case for example I think would take more than a year...

Maybe VWCV can help with stuff like that, didn't they step in with yours somehow?

Yes, I did contact VWCV customer service as Eurovans had initially said they would not refund the extended warranty cost. While I waited on hold, the person from customer service called Eurovans and then informed me that the extended warranty would be refunded!
By the way, a case with The Motor
Ombudsman can take up to 6 months, but I think they can contact the dealer on your behalf if having problems, so could possibly resolve mileage costs quicker.

 

[Kayleigh]

Thank you for this suggestion, had not thought of that route.

I would suggest the most important thing is to keep the communication cordial with the dealer. If you try and make things difficult for them, they may be more inclined to do the same. I did actually call TMO for advice and in doing so they create a case reference. I didn’t need to take the matter any further though.

 

[andyinluton]

Thank you for this suggestion, had not thought of that route.

It's the Motor Ombudsman that has previously decided that a mileage charge was appropriate and used the 45p per mile as a starting point.

Unless the mileage you have done equates exactly to going to a camp site, the roof leaking & you going straight home again you are unlikely to succeed in arguing that the leak has completely prevented you using the van.

Stating on a public forum that you have a topper that you can put on in case it leaks wouldn't help your argument.

If the van has been bought using finance, all finance payments should be refunded.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

The 45p/mile is not written down anywhere. No idea where that came from, there appear to be no sources that say this. However, from thecarexpert.co.uk it says…

“The dealer is able to claim a reduction in the value of the vehicle. This is based on the mileage covered and time elapsed. There is no guidance on how much they can charge you, so be prepared to negotiate this with the dealer. If it goes to court, the judge will decide.”

 

[WelshGas]

The 45p/mile is not written down anywhere. No idea where that came from, there appear to be no sources that say this. However, from thecarexpert.co.uk it says…

“The dealer is able to claim a reduction in the value of the vehicle. This is based on the mileage covered and time elapsed. There is no guidance on how much they can charge you, so be prepared to negotiate this with the dealer. If it goes to court, the judge will decide.”

Maybe the 45p rate came from here,

Travel — mileage and fuel rates and allowances

www.gov.uk

 

[ArunAlec]

I have also bailed (excuse the pun) and bought a Westfalia Club Joker. I didn't even have to threaten Consumer Protection rights, Breeze simply agreed to buy my Ocean back at the price I paid 4 months ago. I had the Ocean booked in locally for a bellows replacement but had no confidence that the current C variant would not leak. We had been looking at the Club Joker for a while and thought that if we ever wanted more on-board facilities such as a bathroom and hot water and be prepared to have a high top as our only vehicle, then the Joker would be the one to suit us. This leak problem brought our decision forward a year or two. Hope we like the Westfalia as much or more than the Cali and going away tomorrow for 4 nights to find out.

I think you’ll be pleased with the Joker. The LWB together with the height, make quite difference to the whole “camping“ experience.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Maybe the 45p rate came from here,

Travel — mileage and fuel rates and allowances

www.gov.uk

Yes probably. Nothing to do with consumer rights then.

 

[dspuk]

The 45p/mile is not written down anywhere. No idea where that came from, there appear to be no sources that say this. However, from thecarexpert.co.uk it says…

“The dealer is able to claim a reduction in the value of the vehicle. This is based on the mileage covered and time elapsed. There is no guidance on how much they can charge you, so be prepared to negotiate this with the dealer. If it goes to court, the judge will decide.”

As others have pointed out the 45p seems to come from the industry standard rate for charging back mileage with your employer which has been 45p a mile for just about forever. It’s the same number I use for my staff.

Some have mentioned 10p a mile and this number is likely being plucked from one of the repayment per mile figures from a PCP if you go over the milage alloted when handing back, a number based on the RV difference if the miles are higher.

If the dealer is trying to get money back for “wear and tear” the 45p per mile number is fuel costs + vehicle wear, and given they are not reclaiming fuel, would not be a fair number.

Both numbers are apples and pears to the case here which does not take into account the “faff” at a customer side and in many cases the cost of ferrying to and fro to a dealer.

Is there a fair number? Given the dealers seem to be reselling the vehciles for at least sale price if not more after hand in, I’d say there is a strong case for arguing not and a stronger case for compensation, depending on circumstances.

Back to the OP (leaking bellows anyone…) it feels from the feedback above that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Fingers crossed for the ones who have been calmly and patiently waiting for a resolution. I’ve poked some of my auto mag journo friends and some VW people I know, hopefully the former makes its way to a magazine article soon.

 

[Jabberwocky]

It's the Motor Ombudsman that has previously decided that a mileage charge was appropriate and used the 45p per mile as a starting point.

Unless the mileage you have done equates exactly to going to a camp site, the roof leaking & you going straight home again you are unlikely to succeed in arguing that the leak has completely prevented you using the van.

Stating on a public forum that you have a topper that you can put on in case it leaks wouldn't help your argument.

If the van has been bought using finance, all finance payments should be refunded.

More things to consider. Thanks.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The 45p/mile is not written down anywhere. No idea where that came from, there appear to be no sources that say this. However, from thecarexpert.co.uk it says…

“The dealer is able to claim a reduction in the value of the vehicle. This is based on the mileage covered and time elapsed. There is no guidance on how much they can charge you, so be prepared to negotiate this with the dealer. If it goes to court, the judge will decide.”

To be honest I would expect to have to pay for fuel and an element of time elapsed since so the last paragraph above makes sense to me.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I would suggest the most important thing is to keep the communication cordial with the dealer. If you try and make things difficult for them, they may be more inclined to do the same. I did actually call TMO for advice and in doing so they create a case reference. I didn’t need to take the matter any further though.

Agree and that is how I will be trying to keep things - cordial has been and will continue to be the watch word. It is also in the dealers interest to keep it all nice and friendly, I have bought three Cali's from him over the last six years.

 

[Sheffield10]

As its wet and 'orrible outside, I decided to test my blue bellows. Van was ordered at the end of April and arrived at the dealer mid September and I collected on the 27th following the dealer's fun and games getting the van taxed. Bellows part number ends 059#C_8NR and the tag date is 26/07/2323.

I opted for real rain rather than hose pipe for this first test as I was interested to see how the bellows stood up in the actual forecast moderate to heavy rain, little to no wind. The van is parked front up on a sloping drive so the front face of the bellows was fully exposed to the rain, with the sides and back much less so. I left the roof up for 5 hours during which time the rain was a steady moderate (BBC double rain drops), with a few spells of heavy rain.

Stopwatch on, rain on, camera on, towels ready. For 2.5 hrs there was no water ingress. Then the drips started to appear along the bottom seam of the front window, each dripping every 30 seconds or so. None of the other seams leaked. I dropped the roof overnight but left the hatch open and left some bath towels on the front seats to catch more drips. This morning the towels were quite damp and one of the seat backs felt slightly damp, so for sure plenty more water passed through the stitch holes once the roof had been lowered.

I have noticed on my bellows that there is a thin strip of black tape sandwiched between the layers of bellows material on sewn seams - e.g. bottom of window seams. Not sure if this is an attempt on 'C' variant bellows to inhibit water passing through stitch holes, or just double sided tape to hold the fabric in place whilst it is sewn during manufacture.

So, my conclusions are that the 'C' variant still leaks, but maybe not as badly as the first version?, as others have said, VW's choice to use blotting paper as the outer layer of the new laminated bellows fabric is the likely root cause of the water ingress, and unless they resort to a new fabric (or the old!) or taping the seams it hard to see how VW will get the current fabric to work. I may try the hosepipe test for comparison before I give VWCS a call.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The 45p/mile is not written down anywhere. No idea where that came from, there appear to be no sources that say this. However, from thecarexpert.co.uk it says…

“The dealer is able to claim a reduction in the value of the vehicle. This is based on the mileage covered and time elapsed. There is no guidance on how much they can charge you, so be prepared to negotiate this with the dealer. If it goes to court, the judge will decide.”

Not unreasonable I would say.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

It does appear that this issue has been acknowledged by VW and they are trying to fix it. Even though we no longer have our van we find this reassuring as we plan to re-enter the world of California ownership again next year and we feel confident this will be resolved by then.

 

[Joncali2023!!]

That’s interesting. Where did you hear this?

A family member who lives in Germany and works for VW. ( Product tester.)

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

As its wet and 'orrible outside, I decided to test my blue bellows. Van was ordered at the end of April and arrived at the dealer mid September and I collected on the 27th following the dealer's fun and games getting the van taxed. Bellows part number ends 059#C_8NR and the tag date is 26/07/2323.

I opted for real rain rather than hose pipe for this first test as I was interested to see how the bellows stood up in the actual forecast moderate to heavy rain, little to no wind. The van is parked front up on a sloping drive so the front face of the bellows was fully exposed to the rain, with the sides and back much less so. I left the roof up for 5 hours during which time the rain was a steady moderate (BBC double rain drops), with a few spells of heavy rain.

Stopwatch on, rain on, camera on, towels ready. For 2.5 hrs there was no water ingress. Then the drips started to appear along the bottom seam of the front window, each dripping every 30 seconds or so. None of the other seams leaked. I dropped the roof overnight but left the hatch open and left some bath towels on the front seats to catch more drips. This morning the towels were quite damp and one of the seat backs felt slightly damp, so for sure plenty more water passed through the stitch holes once the roof had been lowered.

I have noticed on my bellows that there is a thin strip of black tape sandwiched between the layers of bellows material on sewn seams - e.g. bottom of window seams. Not sure if this is an attempt on 'C' variant bellows to inhibit water passing through stitch holes, or just double sided tape to hold the fabric in place whilst it is sewn during manufacture.

So, my conclusions are that the 'C' variant still leaks, but maybe not as badly as the first version?, as others have said, VW's choice to use blotting paper as the outer layer of the new laminated bellows fabric is the likely root cause of the water ingress, and unless they resort to a new fabric (or the old!) or taping the seams it hard to see how VW will get the current fabric to work. I may try the hosepipe test for comparison before I give VWCS a call.View attachment 115072View attachment 115073View attachment 115076View attachment 115075

Might I ask which dealer you bought from and what their response is?

 

[Jeaniethecali]

So my van has been in the workshop since Monday to have a new set of bellows fitted. Today the service manager phoned my up to tell me that they haven’t started the work yet as he’s had several emails this week from various people within VW asking which bellows they were fitting to my van. The reason being there is a new bellows out now that has been redesigned to stop the leaks… however as previously suggested on this forum, they haven’t changed the product number. It is still the C variant. The service manager said that’s virtually unheard of, but that’s what he’s been told by VW. The problem is he doesn’t know whether he is in possession of the C variant that leaks, or the ’new’ C variant that hopefully doesn’t. He’s trying to get that question answered, but no one at VW can answer the answer. Being as they have had the bellows in stock for at least 3 weeks, I‘m pretty confident it will be the leaky variant. He did finish off by saying that no one at VW seems to know their a#se from their elbow when it comes to these bellows.
So hopefully there is a non leaky bellows now being produced….. but it might be a lottery as to whether you get them fitted or the old C variant.