Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[myvanrodney]

We took delivery of our California at the end of July 2023 and being aware from the forum here and another owner of the leaking bellows issue, we tested them out at the first opportunity when it rained to discover that our vehicle leaked as described by many other owners on here.

Fast forward to now, we finally had the new bellows version fitted 2 weeks ago (04S - 22/11/23 manufacturing date). The first opportunity to test them was on Saturday and with trepidation, we put the roof up in the late afternoon as the rain started. From our experience with the original 03S version, I was going out to the Cali every 30 mins to check on the situation and much to our relief, no water was getting inside despite the steady rain (light winds). We decided to leave the roof up overnight in the rain to give it a proper soaking and the following morning, there was still no sign of any water having got inside. The roof was left up to allow the bellows to dry before closing in the evening.

Yesterday (Wednesday), I took the opportunity to put the roof up again in the rain (more wind as well) during the morning knowing I would have to close it while the bellows were wet to drive to work this afternoon and see what would happen. I was worried water from the outside skin would soak through onto the inner layer whilst closed. On arriving home this evening, I opened the roof and rubbed my hand on the inside layer and wasn’t sure if the bellows were cold or whether they were very slightly damp. After wiping the inside skin over with some tissues, I was relieved to find that the tissues remained intact and didn’t show signs of having encountered any moisture. Hopefully this means the end of this sorry saga for us (and for those awaiting new 04S bellows to be fitted) and we can get out and enjoy the Cali as we intended when we ordered.

But, there is still a nagging doubt as to whether this is a genuine fix. What has actually changed with this design compared to the previous version nobody seems to know or say. Is it a design change, a new fabric or has the outer layer been treated to make it waterproof which would become less effective with use? Time will tell. It is a pity that VW won’t be open and honest about it, but that is how most large corporations seem to operate these days. They are happy to take our money, but are not accountable when things go wrong. They talk about customer satisfaction being important but don’t follow it up with their actions. VW are not alone in this from our experience.

The 6 months in between reporting the problem and getting the new bellows fitted have been frustrating and there have been many occasions where we came very close to giving up and walking away, even regretting not rejecting it within the 30 days back in August after finding we had the problem. We stuck with it because the Cali is the best compromise and fit for us having looked at many campervans and van conversions during our search. Hopefully we will be glad we did….

View attachment 119570

Sounds very promising . Thanks for the good news.

Yes, it is very disappointing how big corp plc acts the way they do, ..but hey if it doesn't leak. at the end of the day who cares - time to play!

 

[Ch1pbutty]

I don't expect things to get wet, but likewise I don't think a bit of condensation on the inside of the fabric is unrealistic either. There are limits to the physics of what is possible to achieve with what is still effectively a tent. As long as the bellows provides a dry and comfortable sleeping area, and one that if you drop the bellows wet doesn't result in a wet bed, I would say it's meeting requirements.

Its always best to dry the roof before closing, if you plan on sleeping in it the same night...otherwise you can sometimes end up with a damp matress due the wicking effect. Bit like not allowing bedding to touch the walls of an old canvas tent.

Above can be avoided by fitting an internal isotop liner which acts like a goretex membrane. Also helps dry the roof fabric quicker as creates a small cavity which the draught from the roof vent blows through, which helps dry the roof quicker. Also gives a warmer roof in the winter, cooler / darker in the summer - so helps when you want to put kids to bed before it gets dark.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Its always best to dry the roof before closing, if you plan on sleeping in it the same night...otherwise you can sometimes end up with a damp matress due the wicking effect. Bit like not allowing bedding to touch the walls of an old canvas tent.

Above can be avoided by fitting an internal isotop liner which acts like a goretex membrane. Also helps dry the roof fabric quicker as creates a small cavity which the draught from the roof vent blows through, which helps dry the roof quicker. Also gives a warmer roof in the winter, cooler / darker in the summer - so helps when you want to put kids to bed before it gets dark.

Well I think this is where the material differs these days compared to earlier Calis - the fabric itself in inherently (or should be) waterproof, so there should be no wicking effect. People with new bellows have had issues where water appears to have been trapped between the layers, then when it's folded and where the stitching seems to be the weak point, water has been squeezed out between the layers. My experience of the 02S was the bellows didn't absorb water as such, so even if it was covered in water droplets, you could still drop the roof when you strike camp and that evening everything would still be dry inside.

 

[California_Clarky]

Sorry new to all this I have a 22 cali I assume it's a MY23 how can I tell if I have the affected fabric? should it be ok to put the top up when its raining and not get wet inside?

 

[ParachuteMan]

I have monitored this thread since late Aug 23. I collected my new Ocean 29 Sep 23, so it must have a 03S bellows although there was not tag on the fly screen zip on delivery.

I have used the van several times overnight in dry conditions, but tested it in rainy conditions on the drive, in ever increasing duration and rain type. The latest test in mid-Jan was 6 hours in umbrella-grade rain with light to medium winds. No leaks or drips in any of my tests. (Cue "you are burying your head in the sand").

I watch the experiences here. 04S bellows promised but 03S fitted, even now in Feb 24; rumours of an 05S bellows; people having multiple bellows fitted, one after the other; dealers not believing owners, despite video evidence; Californias in the dealer for days at a time awaiting their test; and sadly, some reporting scratches and damage on return of the vehicle.

I really do wonder if I want to go through the hassle of the warranty route if my bellows does actually leak. Instead, I'm on the cusp of applying Fabsil and seam sealer to do what I can to make my bellows fully leak proof - £36 and 4-5 hours application and drying time, all under MY quality control. Yes, it will almost certainly negate the warranty. But if it does leak after treatment, it looks to be about £1500 to fit a new, updated 04S / 05S bellows. But because I would be paying, I can absolutely make sure it's the latest bellows.

Decision soon.

Very interesting reading since I posted the above. I have just spent 3 days / 2 nights in a very wet Wales on an unsheltered campsite. My previous home-based tests had the back against any wind. In Wales, I had to have the left side exposed to 8-10 mph winds and pretty heavy rain. Result: front of bellows, very little ingress, one slight drip from the seam. Left hand side: ingress after 15-20 minutes at the bottom of the window seam. Right hand side, nothing at all. So as most have experienced it is not the fabric (the rain beads fine on mine), it’s the seams.

Actions: alerted my dealer to what happened to kick off the warranty process. And ordered Fabsil fabric and seam sealant as back up. I have the following options:

1. have a smooth and leak free warranty replacement
2. Get fed up with the continued replacement issues (although they seem to be easing) and Fabsil the bellows and seams.
3. If that fails, then try the warranty route, knowing it may be rejected
4. in that case, order a new bellows at my cost. Probably a similar cost to a 2 week holiday abroad. Plus, I would be in control, able to demand the very latest bellows and not having to have the van tested over a week.
5. Last option - Fabsil the bellows, ignore warranty, listen to the weather forecast, point the back into the wind and use my topper in extreme weather (Albeit a bit of faff to put it on when I’m travelling solo).

However, whatever the issue with the bellows, the Cali Ocean is a great leisure vehicle and not every trip will be rainy.
PS. On my Welsh trip I discovered how to use the awning as a good porch but without the risk of it blowing away. .

 

[stationmaster]

Very interesting reading since I posted the above. I have just spent 3 days / 2 nights in a very wet Wales on an unsheltered campsite. My previous home-based tests had the back against any wind. In Wales, I had to have the left side exposed to 8-10 mph winds and pretty heavy rain. Result: front of bellows, very little ingress, one slight drip from the seam. Left hand side: ingress after 15-20 minutes at the bottom of the window seam. Right hand side, nothing at all. So as most have experienced it is not the fabric (the rain beads fine on mine), it’s the seams.

Actions: alerted my dealer to what happened to kick off the warranty process. And ordered Fabsil fabric and seam sealant as back up. I have the following options:

1. have a smooth and leak free warranty replacement
2. Get fed up with the continued replacement issues (although they seem to be easing) and Fabsil the bellows and seams.
3. If that fails, then try the warranty route, knowing it may be rejected
4. in that case, order a new bellows at my cost. Probably a similar cost to a 2 week holiday abroad. Plus, I would be in control, able to demand the very latest bellows and not having to have the van tested over a week.
5. Last option - Fabsil the bellows, ignore warranty, listen to the weather forecast, point the back into the wind and use my topper in extreme weather (Albeit a bit of faff to put it on when I’m travelling solo).

However, whatever the issue with the bellows, the Cali Ocean is a great leisure vehicle and not every trip will be rainy.
PS. On my Welsh trip I discovered how to use the awning as a good porch but without the risk of it blowing away. .

Good to have an update on your previous post - thanks.

 

[markbrown83]

Sorry new to all this I have a 22 cali I assume it's a MY23 how can I tell if I have the affected fabric? should it be ok to put the top up when its raining and not get wet inside?

Do you have a label like in the following post?

Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

Okay... I have become a reluctant member of the "leaking pop top roof club" :talktothehand. I tested in light drizzle (1.7mm) for just 3 hours today. Im an 02/10/23, 03S with an A sticker (Nov 23 delivery). Leaks on left and right hand side of horizontal seam. I think I understand whats...

vwcaliforniaclub.com

It’s on the inside front of the the bellows when opened. On the zipper I think.

 

[stationmaster]

Good to have an update on your previous post - thanks.

...but sorry to hear about the leaking.

You are right, they are great vehicles, and we need to keep this in mind when we consider the leaking issue

A lot depends on whether the 04S bellows see the issue sorted. I don't think we can be sure on this yet?

 

[Andy C Berks.]

We took delivery of our California at the end of July 2023 and being aware from the forum here and another owner of the leaking bellows issue, we tested them out at the first opportunity when it rained to discover that our vehicle leaked as described by many other owners on here.

Fast forward to now, we finally had the new bellows version fitted 2 weeks ago (04S - 22/11/23 manufacturing date). The first opportunity to test them was on Saturday and with trepidation, we put the roof up in the late afternoon as the rain started. From our experience with the original 03S version, I was going out to the Cali every 30 mins to check on the situation and much to our relief, no water was getting inside despite the steady rain (light winds). We decided to leave the roof up overnight in the rain to give it a proper soaking and the following morning, there was still no sign of any water having got inside. The roof was left up to allow the bellows to dry before closing in the evening.

Yesterday (Wednesday), I took the opportunity to put the roof up again in the rain (more wind as well) during the morning knowing I would have to close it while the bellows were wet to drive to work this afternoon and see what would happen. I was worried water from the outside skin would soak through onto the inner layer whilst closed. On arriving home this evening, I opened the roof and rubbed my hand on the inside layer and wasn’t sure if the bellows were cold or whether they were very slightly damp. After wiping the inside skin over with some tissues, I was relieved to find that the tissues remained intact and didn’t show signs of having encountered any moisture. Hopefully this means the end of this sorry saga for us (and for those awaiting new 04S bellows to be fitted) and we can get out and enjoy the Cali as we intended when we ordered.

But, there is still a nagging doubt as to whether this is a genuine fix. What has actually changed with this design compared to the previous version nobody seems to know or say. Is it a design change, a new fabric or has the outer layer been treated to make it waterproof which would become less effective with use? Time will tell. It is a pity that VW won’t be open and honest about it, but that is how most large corporations seem to operate these days. They are happy to take our money, but are not accountable when things go wrong. They talk about customer satisfaction being important but don’t follow it up with their actions. VW are not alone in this from our experience.

The 6 months in between reporting the problem and getting the new bellows fitted have been frustrating and there have been many occasions where we came very close to giving up and walking away, even regretting not rejecting it within the 30 days back in August after finding we had the problem. We stuck with it because the Cali is the best compromise and fit for us having looked at many campervans and van conversions during our search. Hopefully we will be glad we did….

View attachment 119570

Thanks for the update - encouraging, but as you say, only time will tell.
Mine is in for its second replacement next week (it’s first 04S though) and dealer has just sent me a pic today -interstingly the same date as yours, 22/11/23 so hopefully will get the same positive experience you have had from them thus far.

An interesting couple of points :
1) the pic of the label they sent me doesn’t have an “A” sticker on it, but they also sent me a photo of the label on the polythene wrapping and that does have an “A” sticker on it, as well as also bearing the 22/11/23 date. So whilst I don’t think anyone has yet confirmed what that A symbolises, just because you don’t have it on the label doesn’t mean it hasn’t been subject to A
2) had a conversation with Adrian again today - to be fair he still phones weekly - and whilst there is no update on the question regarding the 04Ss pre 9/11/23, he did say that he still has no evidence of any leakers in the post 9/11 category.

 

[Kayleigh]

So does anyone have a theory of what the ‘A’ sticker means?

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

So does anyone have a theory of what the ‘A’ sticker means?

I would guess quality control. When I had my bellows replaced I heard the parts guys talking about “stickered” bellows. Sounded like they knew they were being send parts with extra QC.

 

[Califan61]

Post in thread 'Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans' https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/leaking-pop-tops-on-2023-california-oceans.50545/post-685941

For what's it worth I hosed down my bellows (above), for only 30 mins as I wanted to put them down dry at the end of the day and they didn't leak. I'm away in the van this weekend so hopefully this may give the bellows a better test.

 

[Andy C Berks.]

Post in thread 'Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans' https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/leaking-pop-tops-on-2023-california-oceans.50545/post-685941

For what's it worth I hosed down my bellows (above), for only 30 mins as I wanted to put them down dry at the end of the day and they didn't leak. I'm away in the van this weekend so hopefully this may give the bellows a better test.

Obviously we hope it remains dry for your weekend away - whilst at the same time secretly hoping it rains at least a bit. Sorry !

 

[RockinNRollin]

Very interesting reading since I posted the above. I have just spent 3 days / 2 nights in a very wet Wales on an unsheltered campsite. My previous home-based tests had the back against any wind. In Wales, I had to have the left side exposed to 8-10 mph winds and pretty heavy rain. Result: front of bellows, very little ingress, one slight drip from the seam. Left hand side: ingress after 15-20 minutes at the bottom of the window seam. Right hand side, nothing at all. So as most have experienced it is not the fabric (the rain beads fine on mine), it’s the seams.

Actions: alerted my dealer to what happened to kick off the warranty process. And ordered Fabsil fabric and seam sealant as back up. I have the following options:

1. have a smooth and leak free warranty replacement
2. Get fed up with the continued replacement issues (although they seem to be easing) and Fabsil the bellows and seams.
3. If that fails, then try the warranty route, knowing it may be rejected
4. in that case, order a new bellows at my cost. Probably a similar cost to a 2 week holiday abroad. Plus, I would be in control, able to demand the very latest bellows and not having to have the van tested over a week.
5. Last option - Fabsil the bellows, ignore warranty, listen to the weather forecast, point the back into the wind and use my topper in extreme weather (Albeit a bit of faff to put it on when I’m travelling solo).

However, whatever the issue with the bellows, the Cali Ocean is a great leisure vehicle and not every trip will be rainy.
PS. On my Welsh trip I discovered how to use the awning as a good porch but without the risk of it blowing away. .

I would suggest you open a case with Adrian / VWCC / VWEO if you haven't already - that will ease any warranty work, although tbh I think dealers are increasingly switched on to the issue now and there's no doubt over the 03S being "a problem" - based on date of your vehicle, I would imagine a good dealer will organise the replacement with little fuss, especially if Adrian is in contact. Just be sure to ask the dealer to confirm exactly what the label says before they install it.

The other option is to raise the issue with Adrian, but say you want to wait a month or so and let the dust settle a bit with other cases, then if all looks good go ahead with the replacement then?

 

[stationmaster]

I would suggest you open a case with Adrian / VWCC / VWEO if you haven't already - that will ease any warranty work, although tbh I think dealers are increasingly switched on to the issue now and there's no doubt over the 03S being "a problem" - based on date of your vehicle, I would imagine a good dealer will organise the replacement with little fuss, especially if Adrian is in contact. Just be sure to ask the dealer to confirm exactly what the label says before they install it.

The other option is to raise the issue with Adrian, but say you want to wait a month or so and let the dust settle a bit with other cases, then if all looks good go ahead with the replacement then?

Sound advice

 

[myvanrodney]

Post in thread 'Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans' https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/leaking-pop-tops-on-2023-california-oceans.50545/post-685941

For what's it worth I hosed down my bellows (above), for only 30 mins as I wanted to put them down dry at the end of the day and they didn't leak. I'm away in the van this weekend so hopefully this may give the bellows a better test.

we are going away for the night too, but ours leaks .. towels at the ready!

 

[ParachuteMan]

I would suggest you open a case with Adrian / VWCC / VWEO if you haven't already - that will ease any warranty work, although tbh I think dealers are increasingly switched on to the issue now and there's no doubt over the 03S being "a problem" - based on date of your vehicle, I would imagine a good dealer will organise the replacement with little fuss, especially if Adrian is in contact. Just be sure to ask the dealer to confirm exactly what the label says before they install it.

The other option is to raise the issue with Adrian, but say you want to wait a month or so and let the dust settle a bit with other cases, then if all looks good go ahead with the replacement then?

I think you are right. My Manchester dealer sales contact has already said he is going to raise it with his Aftersales and Service Manager, who has already dealt with a couple of leakers and knows the process and Adrian. I'm happy to wait a bit to see what is happening with 04S / "05S" etc variants and to see what the tag says before any fitting.

 

[Kenisted]

Sounds very promising . Thanks for the good news.

Yes, it is very disappointing how big corp plc acts the way they do, ..but hey if it doesn't leak. at the end of the day who cares - time to play!

Third set fitted
And still leak

 

[markbrown83]

Third set fitted
And still leak

View attachment 119630

Sorry to hear that. They are dated before the so called magic November date.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Third set fitted
And still leak

View attachment 119630

May I ask which dealer fitted these before the 9 November date?? They should know better...

 

[Kenisted]

May I ask which dealer fitted these before the 9 November date?? They should know better...

Smg tonbridge

 

[Kenisted]

May I ask which dealer fitted these before the 9 November date?? They should know better...

So if the next bellows fitted are after the magic November date are they guaranteed not to leak

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Allegedly...

 

[Paul Mckay 1965]

Had the replacement bellows fitted, they informed they were the wrong ones! Had another set fitted and booked in for a water test on Monday so fingers crossed. 6 months without being able to use it

 

[markbrown83]

Had the replacement bellows fitted, they informed they were the wrong ones! Had another set fitted and booked in for a water test on Monday so fingers crossed. 6 months without being able to use it

Fingers crossed for you.

Do you have a photo of the label that was attached to the bellows? Version and date?