New Engine?

[Steve1]

Sorry, as a statement of implied logic that is bonkers.

(The one and only cause of houses being shaken to the point of collapse is earthquakes, which is in no way disproved by the fact that not all the universe of all houses around the world do end up being shaken down. Nor even that all houses subjected to an earthquake will be shaken down.)

As an owner of a 2015 180 I'm fully aware that there is (1) a known incidence of some EGRs fitted to that engine type becoming defective; and (2) that such defects are known in some cases to cause catastrophic engine damage. That is sufficient to explain that there's a risk - although unquantifiable - that my engine might become affected. It's not necessary to prove the existence of any other, non-EGR driven, factor.

Meanwhile, here is a better explanation:

I agree with number 1, i saw a picture of it once.
For number 2, i am inclided to have the same opinion, but only an opinion (not a fact) because I have never been able to find any actual evidence that it's true. I can find nothing tangible that definately links the picture showing one poor condition EGR to being the actual cause of a problem, other than people (including myself) feeling that it might do !
But maybe I just missed that peice of evidence between the many, many pages of relatively unrelated insults between posters on here.

Adding to your list I can find zero evidence only hearsay that the rev D cooler is the "fix" for the problem, yet that is bandied around as complete fact also.

Sources of information always need interpreting to find facts or form our own opinion, but the petty insults and constant overbearing repetition of peoples opinion as if it is ordained fact on this forum is not very useful (not aimed at your post here Velma's Dad by the way, just a general comment on this page).

 

[WelshGas]

Sorry, as a statement of implied logic that is bonkers.

(The one and only cause of houses being shaken to the point of collapse is earthquakes, which is in no way disproved by the fact that not all the universe of all houses around the world do end up being shaken down. Nor even that all houses subjected to an earthquake will be shaken down.)

As an owner of a 2015 180 I'm fully aware that there is (1) a known incidence of some EGRs fitted to that engine type becoming defective; and (2) that such defects are known in some cases to cause catastrophic engine damage. That is sufficient to explain that there's a risk - although unquantifiable - that my engine might become affected. It's not necessary to prove the existence of any other, non-EGR driven, factor.

Meanwhile, here is a better explanation:

Thank you for clarifying that there is a Risk not a Certainty as some insist.
Just as there is a risk in crossing the road that you will be mowed down as against a certainty that you will be.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Okay is this what we THINK we know then? (correct me if I've got any of this wrong)

1. Excessive oil consumption on T5 180s (the CFCA engine) is at least sometimes caused by bore corrosion associated with aluminium debris getting into the combustion chambers and stuck in rings.

2. There are numerous documented/photographed cases that show major corrosion of the aluminium EGR cooler which is presumed to be the source of the destructive debris. However this doesn't appear to be the case with 140 engines, which have a s/steel cooler.

3. Suffix C coolers are said to be most prone to this problem, with suffix D believed to be less so although is there much good evidence to support?

4. It's mooted that excessive oil consumption itself triggers more intensive DPF regeneration and hence can be a positive feedback loop for damage.

5. Diagnosis methods include compression testing (to detect already--significant bore damage), oil analysis (to detect aluminium particles).

For an owner like me (ie no evident high oil consumption - although mine is now higher than when van was new) there appear to be several options:

• No nothing and hope no issues will manifest, but be prepared if necessary to pay for a new engine at some point.
• Check EGR suffix and if C or lower, replace with a D (which may or may not reduce risk, and of course some engine damage might already have occurred).
• Blank off EGR (which would render van un-MOTable in UK at least, so not realistically an option).
• Trade in van for a 140 T5, or a T6.

What have I missed?

(I'm off to check which EGR model I have in my van).

 

[Hawthorn37]

Interesting thread - just stumbled over it. Apart from which engine build dates may / may not be impacted by failure, it’s a bit of a shocker! Typically we’ve run diesel vehicles up to and beyond 100,000 miles and with the expectation that once sold they will carry on for another 100k.

Not being smug here, but I’m glad we settled for the simpler 150 engine - which is fully meeting our needs. Our choice was certainly not guided by the reported problems above.

I’m a student of Reliabilty Centred Maintenance, which is big on failure modes, cause and effect, and mean time between failure. I’ve also been involved in a few post incident investigations on mechanical failures on an industrial scale. Given the number of engines that are impacted (as contributors mention above), I’m guessing VW probably know with some certainty the probability of failure and the failure mode(s) involved. Normally the failure sample is small (single or at most single digits) - if you have dozens then the analysis is somewhat simpler.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Just spoke to the VW independent who services our van. He is well aware of the issues and they (a small, 2-man operation) have themselves replaced three 180 engines due to the EGR problem. He said straight away that the most sensible precaution is to change the EGR for a later version as he believes (although no hard evidence) that reduces the risks substantially unless damage has already been done.

So that's almost certainly what we'll do, as (a) I'd like to reduce risk of the hassle not to mention major expense of an engine swap; and (b) I've no wish to sell the van for the foreseeable but, as and when, I think paperwork of a precautionary EGR change at this point would be a useful thing to be able to offer, especially if by then there is more general wariness about the "180 issue".

P.S. we also discussed oil consumption rates and he scoffed at VW's assertion of a "normal" consumption rate as 1 litre per 1,000km which was mentioned somewhere else on this thread I think and I had been scratching my head about. He said they will of course use a bit of oil but anything approaching that would indicate a serious issue.

 

[sidepod]

:

• No nothing and hope no issues will manifest, but be prepared if necessary to pay for a new engine at some point.
• Check EGR suffix and if C or lower, replace with a D (which may or may not reduce risk, and of course some engine damage might already have occurred).
• Blank off EGR (which would render van un-MOTable in UK at least, so not realistically an option).
• Trade in van for a 140 T5, or a T6.

What have I missed?

(I'm off to check which EGR model I have in my van).

Get hold of an ally EGR and give it to any half decent fabby and let him make a copy in stainless. Whilst he’s at it, make a load and sell them.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Get hold of an ally EGR and give it to any half decent fabby and let him make a copy in stainless. Whilst he’s at it, make a load and sell them.

Actually I forgot another option... swap for a T4.

 

[Steve1]

Okay is this what we THINK we know then? (correct me if I've got any of this wrong)

1. Excessive oil consumption on T5 180s (the CFCA engine) is at least sometimes caused by bore corrosion associated with aluminium debris getting into the combustion chambers and stuck in rings.

2. There are numerous documented/photographed cases that show major corrosion of the aluminium EGR cooler which is presumed to be the source of the destructive debris. However this doesn't appear to be the case with 140 engines, which have a s/steel cooler.

3. Suffix C coolers are said to be most prone to this problem, with suffix D believed to be less so although is there much good evidence to support?

4. It's mooted that excessive oil consumption itself triggers more intensive DPF regeneration and hence can be a positive feedback loop for damage.

5. Diagnosis methods include compression testing (to detect already--significant bore damage), oil analysis (to detect aluminium particles).

For an owner like me (ie no evident high oil consumption - although mine is now higher than when van was new) there appear to be several options:

• No nothing and hope no issues will manifest, but be prepared if necessary to pay for a new engine at some point.
• Check EGR suffix and if C or lower, replace with a D (which may or may not reduce risk, and of course some engine damage might already have occurred).
• Blank off EGR (which would render van un-MOTable in UK at least, so not realistically an option).
• Trade in van for a 140 T5, or a T6.

What have I missed?

(I'm off to check which EGR model I have in my van).

Ill reply with what I found out when trying to look into it, by no means an expert and I am usually cautious trusting anything which doesn't have some reasonable proof so skewed a bit vs others.

1. Excessive oil consumption on T5 180s (the CFCA engine) is at least sometimes caused by bore corrosion associated with aluminium debris getting into the combustion chambers and stuck in rings.

I haven't personally seen anything which shows evidence of this just some theory based on bore wear and observation or degraded oil coolers in a few pictures. The link between the two has been theorised but not sure any substantial evidence. If anyone has any, factual non opinion based evidence of that then I would be grateful if they could share it it would help alot.

2. There are numerous documented/photographed cases that show major corrosion of the aluminium EGR cooler which is presumed to be the source of the destructive debris. However this doesn't appear to be the case with 140 engines, which have a s/steel cooler.
I have seen the pictures, seems to be good evidence that some have corroded, not sure how many I think it's quite hard to open up so not many of the ones affected probably get opened up to check unfortunately.

3. Suffix C coolers are said to be most prone to this problem, with suffix D believed to be less so although is there much good evidence to support?
People say all but D are most prone, but I have seen no evidence to back that up, only that it's the newest so must be the best and at the time it was said, newer vans hadn't done enough miles to see the problem.
There is also a widely spread rumour of magical coating on D coolers but again there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that either.
I did previously look into this further and found information that pierburg who make it only have 2 revisions of the part number (they only have 2 revisions of thier own internal part numbers for it) and I think B, C and D all shared one of those which sort of makes it less believable. But I can't find that now so also can't provide any proof.

4. It's mooted that excessive oil consumption itself triggers more intensive DPF regeneration and hence can be a positive feedback loop for damage.
No idea, thats probably a theory on a theory.

5. Diagnosis methods include compression testing (to detect already--significant bore damage), oil analysis (to detect aluminium particles).
Compression testing is definative.
Oil content seems more contentious, it seem that most engines tested had quite aluminium content even when they didn't have any issues. I'm not sure anyone really knows the threshold between normal for this type of engine and bad.


I don't want to sound like a nay-sayer, I am just trying to keep an open mind until some facts come along, I hate it when people jump on something made up or guessed that they read on another forum, then treat it as factual information when telling others. It's just misleading.

One thing that does seem apparent is there seems to be more worn out 180 engines than others and something must be causing that, and potentially it is the mechanism described above, but I won't be forced into believing something just because someone shouts abuse at anyone who doesn't or vice versa.

It would also be nice to find information about percentage of bad ones vs good, it's hard to even get a good feel if this is a tiny percentage or a massive one.

 

[Steve1]

Just spoke to the VW independent who services our van. He is well aware of the issues and they (a small, 2-man operation) have themselves replaced three 180 engines due to the EGR problem. He said straight away that the most sensible precaution is to change the EGR for a later version as he believes (although no hard evidence) that reduces the risks substantially unless damage has already been done.

So that's almost certainly what we'll do, as (a) I'd like to reduce risk of the hassle not to mention major expense of an engine swap; and (b) I've no wish to sell the van for the foreseeable but, as and when, I think paperwork of a precautionary EGR change at this point would be a useful thing to be able to offer, especially if by then there is more general wariness about the "180 issue".

P.S. we also discussed oil consumption rates and he scoffed at VW's assertion of a "normal" consumption rate as 1 litre per 1,000km which was mentioned somewhere else on this thread I think and I had been scratching my head about. He said they will of course use a bit of oil but anything approaching that would indicate a serious issue.

I also spoke to a vw specialist independent in our local area about a year ago (the man used to work at VW previously). He said they had not seen any more oil burning 180s than any other vehicle they work on in particular, but that VWs in general do suffer oil usage problems more than other brands. Despite the fact that I was looking to spend money with him he though it was a silly idea to change the ERG cooler for no reason, but quoted it for me so I could choose.

I think that some of the people who are "well aware of the issues" have just read it here or on another similar forum.

 

[flying banana]

has anyone here had a 199/204 T6 fail then ?

 

[ArunAlec]

Just spoke to the VW independent who services our van. He is well aware of the issues and they (a small, 2-man operation) have themselves replaced three 180 engines due to the EGR problem. He said straight away that the most sensible precaution is to change the EGR for a later version as he believes (although no hard evidence) that reduces the risks substantially unless damage has already been done.

So that's almost certainly what we'll do, as (a) I'd like to reduce risk of the hassle not to mention major expense of an engine swap; and (b) I've no wish to sell the van for the foreseeable but, as and when, I think paperwork of a precautionary EGR change at this point would be a useful thing to be able to offer, especially if by then there is more general wariness about the "180 issue".

P.S. we also discussed oil consumption rates and he scoffed at VW's assertion of a "normal" consumption rate as 1 litre per 1,000km which was mentioned somewhere else on this thread I think and I had been scratching my head about. He said they will of course use a bit of oil but anything approaching that would indicate a serious issue.

When I traded in my 2013 T5.1 180, the dealer said his routine was to get the bores checked then replace the EGR. The fact that it was a 180 didn’t seem to bother him and gave me a good price.

 

[WelshGas]

has anyone here had a 199/204 T6 fail then ?

I believe there were some posts on the T6 Forum regarding excessive oil use in those engines.

 

[sidepod]

Actually I forgot another option... swap for a T4.

Ooooh now if you did that you’d have nothing to moan about on www.whatbroketoday.com

 

[sidepod]

So blanking off the egr is a non starter for MOT reasons but what about separating the cooler/heat exchanger bit and junking the cooler etc. Would that still keep the ECU happy?

 

[Perfectos]

Why is my 204PS so thirsty?

I’ve had a 204 dsg around 6-7 months and I’m constantly topping it up with oil, there’s no visible leaks. Is this a common problem, will it get worse?

www.t6forum.com

2016 180 Bi turbo CFCA engine failure is the EGR valve corrosion the cause of the scored and worn out bores

Hi all Just stripped down and rebuilt the engine on a 2016 T6.1 180 bi-turbo CFCA engine after it failed on the A557 heading for Widnes originally had the van recovered to VW van center Liverpool for repair as I thought it was just a failed injector. After a couple of weeks, they said it had no...

www.t6forum.com

https://www.t6forum.com/threads/65-plate-t6-bitdi-engine…-good-or-bad.29573/#post-406725

 

[sbmcd]

I only became aware of the potential EGR issue last month while on holiday in Europe. Despite my 2014, 116K mile 180 using virtually no oil and having good fuel economy. What I had read caused me some concern even though I had the allegedly better later type D EGR fitted at 57 K.

A simple low cost precautionary oil test by Miller's Oils will allow you to monitor the condition of your oil / engine and, show what level of aluminium contamination, if any, your oil has (30 PPM is considered to be an upper limit). An elevated aluminium level is an indicator of the potential EGR issue that causes the poor compression that results in high oil usage on some vehicles.

I have decided to do one annually before oil changes at 12 K or 12 months whichever comes soonest.

It's an easy DIY sample taken down the dipstick tube with a syringe and plastic hose to get the 80 ml of oil to post off to Millers for lab testing. They supply the container and return packaging, results normally within a week.

 

[Perfectos]

I only became aware of the potential EGR issue last month while on holiday in Europe. Despite my 2014, 116K mile 180 using virtually no oil and having good fuel economy. What I had read caused me some concern even though I had the allegedly better later type D EGR fitted at 57 K.

A simple low cost precautionary oil test by Miller's Oils will allow you to monitor the condition of your oil / engine and, show what level of aluminium contamination, if any, your oil has (30 PPM is considered to be an upper limit). An elevated aluminium level is an indicator of the potential EGR issue that causes the poor compression that results in high oil usage on some vehicles.

I have decided to do one annually before oil changes at 12 K or 12 months whichever comes soonest.

It's an easy DIY sample taken down the dipstick tube with a syringe and plastic hose to get the 80 ml of oil to post off to Millers for lab testing. They supply the container and return packaging, results normally within a week.

Sensible approach for anyone who currently owns a 180 BT, it seems the oil change frequency could play a part,
keeping an eye on the Aluminium oxide content before it reaches the upper limit stated by millers can do no harm.
The issue is real to some, not so to others, will VW ever come clean with full disclosure ?
Definitely not.

in the meantime & in the absence of any reliable statistical data to prove or disprove the frequency and specific cause of the known issue, other than the real life reports from owners who have been impacted, dealers and third party companies antidotal evidence, which can’t be quantified against the total volume of 180 engines produced world wide, anyone considering the purchase of a 180 BT should enter into it with their eyes wide open & do their own risk assessment and cost plan, which is what I believe this forum & others tries to promote: Awareness of a potential risk.

 

[Perfectos]

For completeness & a little history of the potential issue

Increased Oil Consumption Problem (2010 T5 Cali 180 bhp)

Hello All, I recently purchased a 2010 California from VW. It has covered 60,000 miles and is fitted with the 2.0 bi turbo 180 bhp engine. We have just returned from our first proper trip, we took in Italy and Germany on a 2,500 mile round trip. The van ran faultless apart from consuming...

vwcaliforniaclub.com

other threads exist on This and other forums

 

[Steve1]

When I traded in my 2013 T5.1 180, the dealer said his routine was to get the bores checked then replace the EGR. The fact that it was a 180 didn’t seem to bother him and gave me a good price.

That's useful information. I wonder if that's because they know it helps from some in-depth understanding of the problem or because they know that customers want to see that when they sell it. Did they test the compression (bored) before trading it and giving you the money or after at their own risk ?

 

[Steve1]

That's useful information. I wonder if that's because they know it helps from some in-depth understanding of the problem or because they know that customers want to see that when they sell it. Did they test the compression (bored) before trading it and giving you the money or after at their own risk ?

That should have said bores not bored !

 

[ArunAlec]

That's useful information. I wonder if that's because they know it helps from some in-depth understanding of the problem or because they know that customers want to see that when they sell it. Did they test the compression (bored) before trading it and giving you the money or after at their own risk ?

Nope they took it at the agreed price without checking. It was a trade in and was low mileage but nevertheless had the engine needed replacement it would have made a big dent in their profit.
For the 6 years I had it there was never an issue with oil. I had an annual oil change rather than the flexible servicing.

 

[Steve1]

Nope they took it at the agreed price without checking. It was a trade in and was low mileage but nevertheless had the engine needed replacement it would have made a big dent in their profit.
For the 6 years I had it there was never an issue with oil. I had an annual oil change rather than the flexible servicing.

I guess they don't consider it a huge risk then, if they didn't check first.

 

[ArunAlec]

I guess they don't consider it a huge risk then, if they didn't check first.

Seems so, especially as they were reselling it rather than moving on at auction.

 

[willwander]

Seems so, especially as they were reselling it rather than moving on at auction.

Depends on the dealer.
Smaller independent car dealers all know about the 180 engine problems and won’t touch a 180 with a barge pole. I know that from experience. i.e selling my 180, which needed a new engine btw ha.

 

[ArunAlec]

Depends on the dealer.
Smaller independent car dealers all know about the 180 engine problems and won’t touch a 180 with a barge pole. I know that from experience. i.e selling my 180, which needed a new engine btw ha.

The dealer in question is probably one of the biggest independent VW Campervan specialists in the UK so would certainly know their stuff.