Speed limit?

[c4s2rs6]

No, not simple! Just did some detective work. Looked up the Grand California reg from an auto car review. Vehicle is listed as an M1 type approval which is a passenger vehicle akin to a car so car limits maybe applicable

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[ChrisandPenney52]

This is so confusing and I don’t think even HMG understand it, given the amount of flip-flopping that happens from time to time, but the UK Government website’s definition of unladen weight is:

“The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.
It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.
It doesn’t include the weight of:
* fuel
* batteries in an electric vehicle - unless it’s a mobility scooter or powered wheelchair”

So VW’s definition is not in line with the official definition of Unladen Weight, and is much closer to Mass in Service as specified on the V5C.

The UK government definition of which vehicles have the lower speed limit are: “Motorhomes or motor caravans (more than 3.05 tonnes maximum unladen weight)”.

I don’t understand the insertion of the word ‘maximum’ into this - seems spurious.

I have also read (but on a caravan Club document not on an HMG website, so not definitive) that dealer fitted options are classified as part of user payload and not unladen weight.

So my best guess is that you can deduct the fuel and driver from the VW brochure ‘unladen weight’ to get the official definition. But in practice I don’t know how this is recorded against the vehicle, if at all, by DVLA.

Not sure if any of this helps or just muddies the waters further!

 

[c4s2rs6]

Thanks. Would be nice if the van came with speed limit stickers on the back like an HGV, nice and simple. No idea what the road tax will be either, brochure says £270 for 600 and 135 for 680 for first year but liable to change as figures are not confirmed. I was trying to tie £270 with vehicle type approval but didn’t get far


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[Jester]

Thanks. Would be nice if the van came with speed limit stickers on the back like an HGV, nice and simple. No idea what the road tax will be either, brochure says £270 for 600 and 135 for 680 for first year but liable to change as figures are not confirmed. I was trying to tie £270 with vehicle type approval but didn’t get far
Believe the 680 is 3880 kg so is £160 as is my 600 3880kg

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[c4s2rs6]

Thanks. I found the details. light goods vehicle (tax class 11) at £270/year


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[Gordon J]

Hi last autumn I was travelling back from north Wales to cheshire in my 4x4 California when I was captured breaking the speed limit .... at ...69 mph

The very kind Chief constable of north Wales police invited me to go on a speed Awareness course .... it was only when I went on the course that it dawned on me a mistake had been made ...

I imagined the whole process would have been fool proof and automated using DVLC data base ... but no mistakenly I was assumed to have been a commercial vehicle ( with a couple of bikes on the bike rack ...)

I wrote and asked for an explanation ... the north Wales police refunded the costs of the speed awareness course and wiped my licence clean again ... I did suggest that they might consider a payment to me for my loss of time / income this was declined , I did n’g pursue it any further but I think I will revisit that one with a “ save to costs “ letter heading to get their attention

 

[c4s2rs6]

Hi Gordon, confirms the system is so complicated that even DVLA don’t know what the speed limit is without some help. Did look like the police were quite helpful in the end. Will wait and see what the V5C says this week when I pick up the van


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[c4s2rs6]

Hi all, update. So the Van is great, currently taking it easy assuming lower limits apply.

V5 says mass in service of 3140kg which matches VW Configurator for the options I selected, it’s registered as a motor caravan. The speed limit change is based on the Unladen weight of 3.05t (defined as no driver or fuel). Unfortunately unladen weight is not stated anywhere in manual, VIN plate or V5 document, however the definition of unladen weight is clear.

Conversion from Mass in service to Unladen weight:

90% fuel and 75kg for driver:
Fuel weight = 0.9*75L*0.85kg/m3 density=57kg

So 3140-75-57=3.008t so about 40kg below the 3.05t limit.

So theoretically just below the magic unladen weight and higher speeds limits apply. What I don’t know or understand is of the Speed Camera database would know any of above. Some can detect vehicle type abs look up details before sending fines out and the only detail DVLA may know is that it’s above 3.05t based on the mass in service.

Generally I don’t mind driving at the lower speed but occasionally you feel like you need to drive faster when surrounded by cars getting backed up on single carriage ways for example.

Do those with their GCs 600s take it easy and assume they can’t drive at the car limits?

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[Jester]

Yep I do particularly up the A9

 

[Simon1]

Hi all, update. So the Van is great, currently taking it easy assuming lower limits apply.

V5 says mass in service of 3140kg which matches VW Configurator for the options I selected, it’s registered as a motor caravan. The speed limit change is based on the Unladen weight of 3.05t (defined as no driver or fuel). Unfortunately unladen weight is not stated anywhere in manual, VIN plate or V5 document, however the definition of unladen weight is clear.

Conversion from Mass in service to Unladen weight:

90% fuel and 75kg for driver:
Fuel weight = 0.9*75L*0.85kg/m3 density=57kg

So 3140-75-57=3.008t so about 40kg below the 3.05t limit.

So theoretically just below the magic unladen weight and higher speeds limits apply. What I don’t know or understand is of the Speed Camera database would know any of above. Some can detect vehicle type abs look up details before sending fines out and the only detail DVLA may know is that it’s above 3.05t based on the mass in service.

Generally I don’t mind driving at the lower speed but occasionally you feel like you need to drive faster when surrounded by cars getting backed up on single carriage ways for example.

Do those with their GCs 600s take it easy and assume they can’t drive at the car limits?

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On my 680 the Road sign display option shows 70mph on dual carriageways but I'm not relying on it as I'm pretty sure it's wrong.

 

[Jester]

On my 680 the Road sign display option shows 70mph on dual carriageways but I'm not relying on it as I'm pretty sure it's wrong.

Funny that pleased you brought that up as most of the time mine shows 60mph on a duel carriageway until you get to the exit/access then it shows 70mph until you are passed it then reverts to 60mph so I'm guessing our sat naves are calibrated to our individual vans.

 

[Simon1]

Funny that pleased you brought that up as most of the time mine shows 60mph on a duel carriageway until you get to the exit/access then it shows 70mph until you are passed it then reverts to 60mph so I'm guessing our sat naves are calibrated to our individual vans.

I should say this is from limited experience and will keep an eye on it on future trips. I went from the M5 to the A38 and watched waiting for it to change to 60mph but it didn’t.

 

[Jester]

I should say this is from limited experience and will keep an eye on it on future trips. I went from the M5 to the A38 and watched waiting for it to change to 60mph but it didn’t.

Have to say its not that reliable but most of the time its correct.

 

[B J G]

Never rely on Sat Nav as a speed limit legal indication. They aren't always up to date with the latest local changes such as simply moving the limit start sign a few hundred yards down/up the road.

Also remember 2 lanes only become a Dual Carriageway when there is a physical barrier between you and the traffic coming towards you.

 

[Jester]

Never rely on Sat Nav as a speed limit legal indication. They aren't always up to date with the latest local changes such as simply moving the limit start sign a few hundred yards down/up the road.

Also remember 2 lanes only become a Dual Carriageway when there is a physical barrier between you and the traffic coming towards you.

agreed, one should always know the law. however some have built in signage recognition which actually does work well.

 

[Simon1]

Might also be worth mentioning that in my experience car or van Speedo’s are alway 2-3 mph under actual speed, and the sat nav will give a more accurate indication. It’s handy when going through average speed camera zones as you can pass slower cars going by their car speedometer.

 

[B J G]

agreed, one should always know the law. however some have built in signage recognition which actually does work well.

Have that in the car but found that can miss signs.

Until 'Big Brother' brings in Automatic Speed Limiter control we'll just have to rely on our fallible Human senses.

 

[c4s2rs6]

I weighed the van with an almost empty tank of fuel to get the unladen weight as per speed limit definition. Was well below 3.05t so looks ok to drive at car limits in theory.

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[B J G]

I weighed the van with an almost empty tank of fuel to get the unladen weight as per speed limit definition. Was well below 3.05t so looks ok to drive at car limits in theory.

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Acid test may to ask a Police Traffic Officer what he would define your Grand as for speed enforcement.
Pop into the HQ with V5 and your weight certificate and ask, after all you only wish to abide by the rules.

Scotland may be different to England & Wales as (may now have changed) it didn't up the HGV single carriageway speed limit to 50mph from 40mph as was done South of the Border.

 

[c4s2rs6]

Thanks, yes that may work or at least confirm if I’m miss interpreting something. Don’t intend to drive at car speeds routinely but I’m also not used to getting overtaken or blocking traffic (other vehicle is an Audi RS6)


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[ShmBK]

I weighed the van with an almost empty tank of fuel to get the unladen weight as per speed limit definition. Was well below 3.05t so looks ok to drive at car limits in theory.

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hey, did you ever get full clarification on this. the one I may buy has MPV on v5 and mass in service of 3132. I'm not far from whiterashes, so may make that my maiden voyage!

 

[c4s2rs6]

Hey. No, not driven much with lockdown and have been carrying the certificate just in case. Tend to drive fairly sedately. Been meaning to go back to Whiterashes to see what a loaded van weights with bikes etc. Few GCs in the area local area now, I’m near Banchory.


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[B J G]

Acid test may to ask a Police Traffic Officer what he would define your Grand as for speed enforcement.
Pop into the HQ with V5 and your weight certificate and ask, after all you only wish to abide by the rules.

Scotland may be different to England & Wales as (may now have changed) it didn't up the HGV single carriageway speed limit to 50mph from 40mph as was done South of the Border.

HGV limit comes in at 7.5Tonnes. As you say 3.5Tonnes vans are in a grey area.

I do recall the reduced speed limit being applied to vans in England at 3.5tonnes a few years back when an HGV Breakdown Fitter was complaining that it took much longer to get to breakdowns due to that factor, especially at night when on call from home.

 

[B J G]

I weighed the van with an almost empty tank of fuel to get the unladen weight as per speed limit definition. Was well below 3.05t so looks ok to drive at car limits in theory.

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Question is who will be the first to run at 70MPH on the A90 Dundee - Perth Average Speed Camera Zone?

 

[Velma's Dad]

Might also be worth mentioning that in my experience car or van Speedo’s are alway 2-3 mph under actual speed, and the sat nav will give a more accurate indication. It’s handy when going through average speed camera zones as you can pass slower cars going by their car speedometer.

Yes GPS is a good way to check speed but it's also useful to know what your speedo error is as well. Factory calibration will be on OEM tyres of course but then even a small change in tyres size will make a significant difference to speedo.

Eg by switching from say a 55 to a 65 profile on 235 tyres would change speedo from reading 2% over, to something approaching 5% under.