The New All electric California due in Autumn 2019. What are you thoughts?

[Amarillo]

Just my view but electrifying everything isn't the answer, its merely a trendy "sticking plaster" that shifts the pollution from the tail pipe to somewhere else less obvious.

Anyway if the vast majority of our national vehicle fleet along with both commercial and domestic energy needs become dependant on electricity then IMO, we would be placing our nation in a very precarious and vunerable position. These future problems would be bad enough if our utilities including electricity generating capabilities were still in public hands but alas that ship sailed long ago.

Leaving that last point to one side, I'm no expert so may be wrong but this "all eggs in one basket" approach to vehicle development is for me at least, very worrying. The Government's banning of the sale of new zero emissision hybrid cars from 2035 is in my opinion extremely concerning. For me it's nothing short of an act of sheer folly. The effect on the motor industry must have been to kill all future R n D work not to mention the valuable work that could have continued on ICE engine emission development. I am certain that this myopic polilcy will lead to big trouble ahead. For that reason and the fact that there are still too many un-answered questions relating to EV adoption, I will be sticking with ICE for the time being.

And another thing, if anyone is changing to EV ownership due to the lower running costs then that "honeymoon period" is already coming to an end. With ever greater EV use, that growing "Black Hole" in Government revenue receipts will become a huge problem and will need to be filled. That in turn will dictate that the current financial advantages of owning an EV will quickly disappear. With a reducing ICE fleet the ability to raise that tax deficit from further penalising demon diesels etc will quickly become impossible and once that good old cash cow starts to dry up the EV will start to become demonised in some way to replace that lost tax revenue. The reasons they come up with aren't in themselves important but watch this space as it's only a matter of time. And all this will happen along side spiralling energy costs!

There was a switch from horse to ICE. It has never completely eliminated the horse as a means of transport.

The switch from electricity generated by coal to electricity generated by gas has been relatively painless (until Russia invaded Ukraine anyway).

But yes, we need a variety of ways to generate electricity: hydro, tidal, solar, wind, nuclear and, for some years at least, fossil fuels. As I see it, the plan is to reduce reliance on fossil fuels and increase generation by nuclear and renewables. I don’t have a problem with that.

This gives up to the minute details of power generation.

National Grid: Live

Shows the live status of Great Britain’s electric power transmission network

grid.iamkate.com

At the time I looked a solid 47% was renewables, 33% fossil fuels and 19% nuclear.

Increase renewables by 50% and nuclear by 50% and generation by fossil fuels can be reserved for when the wind drops and/or cloudy days. Perhaps in time predictable and reliable tidal power can replace nuclear generation.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

Almost the entire point of HS2 - to create capacity for passengers and freight on classic rail.
Some have suggested it was mis-named. If you’re building a new railway it might as well be fast (and that attracts city-city travellers to use it for a small premium, rather than trundle down on classic rail, and as HS2 have committed to 100% renewable energy, reduce their carbon footprint).
But a more accurate name might have been High Capacity 2 (not as sexy though)

I live in Wendover and HS2 passes by the western edge of the village. I have noted that many of the local protestors have enjoyed city break trips to Paris on HS1. They seem oblivious to their own hypocrisy.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

Reinvest the railways. Pre the Beeching cuts the railway network reached almost every corner of the UK. If this still existed goods could be easily transported just about everywhere and tens of thousands of trucks could be removed from the road network.

But then all those fabulous cycle routes would close !! :-(
Just joking, you’re right of course, a reinstated rail network would be terrific.

 

[clarinetbcn]

Just my view but electrifying everything isn't the answer, its merely a trendy "sticking plaster" that shifts the pollution from the tail pipe to somewhere else less obvious.

Anyway if the vast majority of our national vehicle fleet along with both commercial and domestic energy needs become dependant on electricity then IMO, we would be placing our nation in a very precarious and vunerable position. These future problems would be bad enough if our utilities including electricity generating capabilities were still in public hands but alas that ship sailed long ago.

Leaving that last point to one side, I'm no expert so may be wrong but this "all eggs in one basket" approach to vehicle development is for me at least, very worrying. The Government's banning of the sale of new zero emissision hybrid cars from 2035 is in my opinion extremely concerning. For me it's nothing short of an act of sheer folly. The effect on the motor industry must have been to kill all future R n D work not to mention the valuable work that could have continued on ICE engine emission development. I am certain that this myopic polilcy will lead to big trouble ahead. For that reason and the fact that there are still too many un-answered questions relating to EV adoption, I will be sticking with ICE for the time being.

And another thing, if anyone is changing to EV ownership due to the lower running costs then that "honeymoon period" is already coming to an end. With ever greater EV use, that growing "Black Hole" in Government revenue receipts will become a huge problem and will need to be filled. That in turn will dictate that the current financial advantages of owning an EV will quickly disappear. With a reducing ICE fleet the ability to raise that tax deficit from further penalising demon diesels etc will quickly become impossible and once that good old cash cow starts to dry up the EV will start to become demonised in some way to replace that lost tax revenue. The reasons they come up with aren't in themselves important but watch this space as it's only a matter of time. And all this will happen along side spiralling energy costs!

I think you’ve missed the focus on this: it’s the auto manufacturers who are pushing for electric because they are stupidly simple and cheap to produce compared to ICE, plus they can be sold at a premium. VW has already announced that the switch to electric will involve getting rid of 30% of their work force.

 

[Borris]

I'm sure you're correct however it's governments that legislate and set targets.

Several years ago I read that the sales of ICE vehicles had been in decline so what better opportunity than being handed the task of replacing the world wide ICE fleet with EVs. That will no doubt be a nice little earner.

 

[66tim99]

I live in Wendover and HS2 passes by the western edge of the village. I have noted that many of the local protestors have enjoyed city break trips to Paris on HS1. They seem oblivious to their own hypocrisy.

I understand their worry, and really feel for those few who have suffered compulsory purchase. But everyone else should feel reassured that massive effort is going in to mitigate the railway - noise barriers, earthworks and planting to integrate it into the landscape, screen and create new habitats. People ask why major projects take so long and cost so much in the U.K. - part of it is the exceptional efforts required to plan to treat people, places and wildlife with the respect we expect.
Our grand kids won’t be able to imagine England without HS2, just like no-one (ok very few people, even in Kent) would turn back the clock and do without Eurostar/ Javelin now.

 

[soulstyledevon]

I live in Wendover and HS2 passes by the western edge of the village. I have noted that many of the local protestors have enjoyed city break trips to Paris on HS1. They seem oblivious to their own hypocrisy.

HS1 cost about £6b. HS2 is forecast to cost in excess of £100b
Passenger usage is down by about 38% since the pandemic and the government has had to invest £16b to prop up the rail infrastructure to stop it collapsing as less people commute and more people work from home.

HS2 won’t even terminate in Birmingham centre. It stops around Birmingham airport, which there is a proposed new city (sorry village) to be built around the interchange.

It’s a colossal waste of money. They could’ve built a standard line for a fraction of the cost and that would’ve increased capacity without the cost or devestation HS2 is creating.
Shaving 15minutes off a journey in the UK is neither here nor there…

 

[Amarillo]

HS1 cost about £6b. HS2 is forecast to cost in excess of £100b

Thameslink cost £6.5bn
Crossrail cost £16bn

Passenger numbers on Thameslink doubled from 547 million 1995/6 to 1.1 billion 2016/7.

Crossrail predicts 250 million passengers by 2026.

11 million passengers used Eurostar in 2018.

220 million passengers a year are predicted to use HS2.

 

[soulstyledevon]

Thameslink cost £6.5bn
Crossrail cost £16bn

Passenger numbers on Thameslink doubled from 547 million 1995/6 to 1.1 billion 2016/7.

Crossrail predicts 250 million passengers by 2026.

11 million passengers used Eurostar in 2018.

220 million passengers a year are predicted to use HS2.

So Thameslink cost £6.5b and has 1.1billion passengers.
HS2 will lightly cost £110b has a predicted passenger usage of 220million.

It’s not a value for money project…
I’ve read, that if half the HS2 money was spent on the Northern railway network. For every pound spent, it would add £5 back into the economy vs HS2 forecast of £0.90

 

[flying banana]

HS2 , mmmm. not sure about the value of that. what i can say though we are desperate for more transport in the north. east to west etc is terrible. my local station of Thorne south has been a bus service now for over 5 months with no sign of the trains returning,and no,they are not working on the tracks. the bus takes forever and regularly doesn't show, i never use it,far less hassle to drive or get a taxi. as for electric transport of any kind,they cancelled the electrification betwixt the 2 huge cities of manchester and sheffield because.....drum roll.......it was too expensive. this forced the rail companies to buy new diesel trains because the hated 142 pacers (buses on rails)were groaning and rotting away after covering 4 million miles a piece. go figure. HS2 won't benefit me,off to work in sheffield soon,now wheres my car keys ?

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

HS2 is not about cutting 20 minutes off the London to Birmingham journey. It is surely a longer term strategy to enable pan-European high speed rail. I.e. get on in Newcastle, Liverpool, Glasgow, Edinburgh, etc and travel to Paris, Barcelona, Rome, Munich etc without jumping on an aeroplane. Aren’t we all supposed to be reducing our air miles?

 

[Amarillo]

HS2 is not about cutting 20 minutes off the London to Birmingham journey. It is surely a longer term strategy to enable pan-European high speed rail. I.e. get on in Newcastle, Liverpool, Glasgow, Edinburgh, etc and travel to Paris, Barcelona, Rome, Munich etc without jumping on an aeroplane. Aren’t we all supposed to be reducing our air miles?

If that were the case HS2 would link up to HS1. It doesn’t.

 

[soulstyledevon]

HS2 is not about cutting 20 minutes off the London to Birmingham journey. It is surely a longer term strategy to enable pan-European high speed rail. I.e. get on in Newcastle, Liverpool, Glasgow, Edinburgh, etc and travel to Paris, Barcelona, Rome, Munich etc without jumping on an aeroplane. Aren’t we all supposed to be reducing our air miles?

They’ve already cut the section of track from Birmingham to Leeds.
This is to try and bring the project within £100billion mark, which apparently still isn’t possible.
I’m all for investment and moving forward, But this is scandalous.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

If that were the case HS2 would link up to HS1. It doesn’t.

Nor does HS1 link up with High Speed rail going south of Paris. Maybe one day?

 

[The Tall Luthier]

So Thameslink cost £6.5b and has 1.1billion passengers.
HS2 will lightly cost £110b has a predicted passenger usage of 220million.

It’s not a value for money project…
I’ve read, that if half the HS2 money was spent on the Northern railway network. For every pound spent, it would add £5 back into the economy vs HS2 forecast of £0.90

You may well be right on the value for money aspect but you overlook one very important factor of government spending.
Keynes, quite clever, said that governments should tax like crazy when the economy is flourishing but spend like crazy when the economy is floundering. (He was more erudite than me obvs)
The idea of government is to iron out the peaks and troughs through tax and spend.

This £100bn will go into worker’s pockets, they will pay taxes, they will spend it in shops, the shops will increase productivity, they also will pay tax. The money will loop around and will eventually end up in two places, the HMRC and the wealthy (who won’t spend it cause they have too much)

So at this time we should celebrate HS2 it will give us more capacity and it will boost the economy. That said, personally, I’d rather spend it on health care and social services.

 

[soulstyledevon]

You may well be right on the value for money aspect but you overlook one very important factor of government spending.
Keynes, quite clever, said that governments should tax like crazy when the economy is flourishing but spend like crazy when the economy is floundering. (He was more erudite than me obvs)
The idea of government is to iron out the peaks and troughs through tax and spend.

This £100bn will go into worker’s pockets, they will pay taxes, they will spend it in shops, the shops will increase productivity, they also will pay tax. The money will loop around and will eventually end up in two places, the HMRC and the wealthy (who won’t spend it cause they have too much)

So at this time we should celebrate HS2 it will give us more capacity and it will boost the economy. That said, personally, I’d rather spend it on health care and social services.

Agree.
But the money could be spent better.
They could’ve built another standard line to increase capacity and had money left over for schools and the NHS.

I’m someone that will no doubt benefit from HS2. The interchange will be roughly 17minutes drive from my house. I’ve seen growth of 23% in the last 4 years, and on completion of HS2 will see further strong property value increases.

Crosslink brought local house price increases of 66%.

But still, HS2 doesn’t sit right. I’m sure some very rich people, will get excessively wealthy off this disastrous project all thanks to the good old gullible British Taxpayer…

 

[Amarillo]

So Thameslink cost £6.5b and has 1.1billion passengers.
HS2 will lightly cost £110b has a predicted passenger usage of 220million.

It’s not a value for money project…
I’ve read, that if half the HS2 money was spent on the Northern railway network. For every pound spent, it would add £5 back into the economy vs HS2 forecast of £0.90

So Thameslink cost £6.5b and has 1.1billion passengers.
HS2 will lightly cost £110b has a predicted passenger usage of 220million.

It’s not a value for money project…
I’ve read, that if half the HS2 money was spent on the Northern railway network. For every pound spent, it would add £5 back into the economy vs HS2 forecast of £0.90

Thameslink is a little talked about success. Each line in this map represents a two train per hour service, giving a 24 trains per hour service each way, through the central section.

The core route, Brighton to Bedford, is 130 miles.

HS2 phase 1 is 140 miles.

However, ThamesLink is an upgrade and untangling of existing lines, not a wholly new line. Blackfriars is a phenomenal rebuilt station over the Thames, with ticket halls on both the north and south banks, making it two stations in one, each serving totally different catchments.

 

[soulstyledevon]

I just watched California Time Vlog.
€80k for a Buzz…

 

[subthree]

I just watched California Time Vlog.
€80k for a Buzz…

I really like the Buzz. I even read that it supports bi-directional charging so that saves buying a Tesla Powerwall - the previous owner of our house installed 18 solar panels.

However, £70k, £80k, £90k - how is that going to bring electric vehicles to the mass population? It isn't. The Government's aim for the end of new ICE sales by 2030 doesn't seem remotely realistic with vehicles like this costing 2 arms and 2 legs. I thought VW was meant to be the "people's car".

 

[Perfectos]

I really like the Buzz. I even read that it supports bi-directional charging so that saves buying a Tesla Powerwall - the previous owner of our house installed 18 solar panels.

However, £70k, £80k, £90k - how is that going to bring electric vehicles to the mass population? It isn't. The Government's aim for the end of new ICE sales by 2030 doesn't seem remotely realistic with vehicles like this costing 2 arms and 2 legs. I thought VW was meant to be the "people's car".

I have to agree with your statement Subthree.
the governments forgot to introduce that all important statement:

“EV’s must be affordable and have the proper infrastructure in place prior to 2025, to ensure the mass change over is actually achievable for the average person By 2030, and the resources required should not increase potential pollution via manufacturing or ongoing use of EVs“

otherwise the whole 2030 thing is pointles, other than creating wider confusion over ICE / EV and wasting precious world wide resources scrapping perfectly serviceable vehicles prematurely in favour of new EV units requiring an unimaginable use of energy and resources to produce and distribute worldwide and use for the lifetime of the vehicle (Pollution / energy) , removing old infrastructure and replacing with new (to service the demand for EV use), which would not have been used had a natural process of redundancy been applied to older ICE vehicles as they reach their natural end of life and as technology naturally develops to ensure EVs are usable in real world situations, without using inordinate polluting processes and energy In to the bargain.

But that wouldn’t give the world economy a false shot in the Arm that the politicians need to stay in power would it !
IMO future History will record the Damage unleashed on the world via these forced policies, unnecessary pollution & use of resources to achieve political causes.

How many of those politicians will be in power come 2030 !
Naturally the Market / masses would decide on what, when & How to adopt the new technology if the politicians hadn’t forced the situation by imposing rules and dates.
but if it’s unaffordable / unworkable to many what happens then ?

One size does not fit all, despite the political ambitions

The modern take on the VW the peoples car “VW, the people’s car at a price the average person can’t afford”

 

[Digger]

I just wish VW would not make excessive charges for every thing. Much like a low cost airline. Make the price realistic and include the additions which come as standard on many other manufactures vehicles. When i configured a T7 multivan the basic cost for a non electric version ran away with the additional cost of extras. Maybe VW are planning for major redundancy packages.

 

[subthree]

I just wish VW would not make excessive charges for every thing. Much like a low cost airline. Make the price realistic and include the additions which come as standard on many other manufactures vehicles. When i configured a T7 multivan the basic cost for a non electric version ran away with the additional cost of extras. Maybe VW are planning for major redundancy packages.

I remember when specifying our original T6 order that upgrades on the Cali that cost £1,600 were "only" £1,000 on the Transporter, even though they were exactly the same item e.g. LED headlights, sat nav.

 

[Perfectos]

I just wish VW would not make excessive charges for every thing. Much like a low cost airline. Make the price realistic and include the additions which come as standard on many other manufactures vehicles. When i configured a T7 multivan the basic cost for a non electric version ran away with the additional cost of extras. Maybe VW are planning for major redundancy packages.

Bells and whistles that we can’t do without (or don’t want to) make Motor companies and absolute fortune in upselling.

they can advertise a vehicle at the lowest rate, to create a hook, then hit you hard when you actually engage with the sales process.

you see it in vehicle ads “model shown may include additional items” as your looking at the basic model price !

I think BMW started it all some time ago.

 

[soulstyledevon]

Bells and whistles that we can’t do without (or don’t want to) make Motor companies and absolute fortune in upselling.

they can advertise a vehicle at the lowest rate, to create a hook, then hit you hard when you actually engage with the sales process.

you see it in vehicle ads “model shown may include additional items” as your looking at the basic model price !

I think BMW started it all some time ago.

BMWs are quite well specced from standard these days.
It’s lightly the Buzz will cost between £65-£70k. I’ve just had a look on the LR site. You can pick up a 2 year old, low miles Range Rover sport for that sort of money…

 

[Amarillo]

Bells and whistles that we can’t do without (or don’t want to) make Motor companies and absolute fortune in upselling.

they can advertise a vehicle at the lowest rate, to create a hook, then hit you hard when you actually engage with the sales process.

you see it in vehicle ads “model shown may include additional items” as your looking at the basic model price !

I think BMW started it all some time ago.

I'm seriously considering the Citroen Ami for pootling around London: shopping trips, dog walking, visiting elderly relatives. Highly affordable at £7,695, can be charged to 100% from a normal domestic socket in three hours, and will go from zero to its top speed in just 10 seconds (The Bugatti Centodieci takes over 13 seconds to reach just 80% of its top speed).

OK - the Ami might be little more than a souped up golf cart, but for city roads it is ideal.