With all that's happening... what do you think about keeping/buying California diesels right now?

[Borris]

I never hear about targeting fifthly diesel trains built in the 90's that belch out fumes, or coaches that the council contract to take kids to school that are 20-years old?
The focus seems to be on privately owned cars, many of which are Euro 5 & 6 engines and, by comparison, somewhat cleaner than their predecessors.
I do think we have a growing pollution problem, but new diesel cars are not the biggest contributors.
When we go electric, the focus will shift to the particles from brakes, tyres and the like...

I believe that the emphasis is on private cars for a very good reason. "At the end of 2016 there were 37.3 million vehicles licensed for use on the roads in Great Britain, of which 30.9 million were cars". That's 30.9 million very lucrative cash cows.

With car sales falling and car manufacturing in the doldrums, if the Government can persuade us all to change our cars to electric then the ailing car industry is onto another winner for the next few years until it's discovered that EVs aren't the answer after all. Then we will be told we must change our cars to something else because producing vehicle batteries is highly polluting and therefore very environmentally unfriendly. What goes around comes around.

Yes, we have a big issue with global warming but forcing diesel cars off the roads isn't going to improve that situation. As EVs are still far to expensive for the majority of buyers, I suspect most buyers would consider buying petrol instead. Petrol vehicles produce much more CO2 than diesels which was the reason we were all told to buy diesels a few short years ago.

What's being done about aircraft pollution? Heathrow takes in about 1300 aircraft a day that's one every 45 seconds. A similar number are dealt with by Gatwick. With the prevailing wind direction over London being from the south west it stands to reason that a significant amount of London's problem comes from above. Jet aircraft crop dust just the same types of pollutants that are currently being blaimed almost exclusively on diesel cars.

I'm not defending the diesel car but instead questioning why a more even handed approach to dealing with this issue isn't being pursued.

 

[AlanC]

I believe that the emphasis is on private cars for a very good reason. "At the end of 2016 there were 37.3 million vehicles licensed for use on the roads in Great Britain, of which 30.9 million were cars". That's 30.9 million very lucrative cash cows.

With car sales falling and car manufacturing in the doldrums, if the Government can persuade us all to change our cars to electric then the ailing car industry is onto another winner for the next few years until it's discovered that EVs aren't the answer after all. Then we will be told we must change our cars to something else because producing vehicle batteries is highly polluting and therefore very environmentally unfriendly. What goes around comes around.

Yes, we have a big issue with global warming but forcing diesel cars off the roads isn't going to improve that situation. As EVs are still far to expensive for the majority of buyers, I suspect most buyers would consider buying petrol instead. Petrol vehicles produce much more CO2 than diesels which was the reason we were all told to buy diesels a few short years ago.

What's being done about aircraft pollution? Heathrow takes in about 1300 aircraft a day that's one every 45 seconds. A similar number are dealt with by Gatwick. With the prevailing wind direction over London being from the south west it stands to reason that a significant amount of London's problem comes from above. Jet aircraft crop dust just the same types of pollutants that are currently being blaimed almost exclusively on diesel cars.

I'm not defending the diesel car but instead questioning why a more even handed approach to dealing with this issue isn't being pursued.

Being cynical, it is all down who has the most influence, on the government of the day, the voter or the lobbyist?

Currently, I don't think we, the voters despite many protestations to the oposite, have much influence at all, but big business, the city, and the banks do.

Alan

 

[Amarillo]

I agree with the reduced congestion and relative pollution per journey, but very few buses outside a few major cities have moved to cleaner buses.

It is major cities which suffer most from pollution.

I caught a hybrid bus few days ago. It pulled away from the bus stop with electric alone, and once it reached 5-10 mph the diesel engine took over

It may have been one of these:
https://www.volvobuses.co.uk/en-gb/our-offering/buses/volvo-7900-hybrid.html

 

[Stoneybroke]

It is major cities which suffer most from pollution.

I caught a hybrid bus few days ago. It pulled away from the bus stop with electric alone, and once it reached 5-10 mph the diesel engine took over

It may have been one of these:
https://www.volvobuses.co.uk/en-gb/our-offering/buses/volvo-7900-hybrid.html

It's all an improvement, but that's a limited contribution. Removing the fuel tick over at bus stops and bindings will help, but the school bus behind belching out fumes negates the advance. The removal of subsidies for electric vehicles is a retrograde step.
Visiting Sheffield this week the electric trams look well used (Nottingham too)

 

[MonkeyBoy]

Diesels will be around for another 30 years for sure, I'm pretty sure I won't live another 30 never mind have the ability or inclination to camp at 90 years old! I'm looking to buy next year and it will be diesel....electrics are pants

 

[Penn]

Just spent last 2 days reading through this discussion and the previous ones similar.

They are like a mirror for the world currently. Every correct and incorrect position stated.

Some of the worst...the planet will be ruined anyway so why bother....lithium mining, production carbon cost etc etc. I'm not sure anyone has ever claimed that any EV has a zero carbon cost but a lot of the popular "arguments" are not as accurate as popular myth suggests search lithium production + brine electrolysis for instance. The most used picture that accompanies the lithium mining comment is a copper mine.

I have an eGolf and I love it, I do a 70 mile daily round trip, I am lucky enough to have a drive so charging is no problem. I have done many multiple 100's of miles journeys and yes the infrastructure needs more improvement but it is not as dire as people (particularly those who have not used it) think. My energy provider is 100% green so no fossil fuel powering my charging.

I had decided not to buy another ICE vehicle again, however the decision to look for a camper/caravan left me in the position that many have stated. There is no viable electric option currently. (Tesla model x and caravan accepted but outside mine and most budget). I looked closely at eCrafter to do a self build. It was not the admittedly low range that put me off but the price 70-80k. Range could be added.

I have a deposit down on a year old Cali Beach. When a viable electric option exists I will swap or convert with no second thoughts.

You can't please all the people but personally I believe EV's are the future. Time will tell.

 

[2into1]

Andrew Ditton just drove an electric 'white box' motorhome. The range is bigger than expected but so was the price.... A good Eur100k more than a similar diesel model (perhaps Eur130k).

Some of the cost is because the manufacturer converts an existing diesel model to elec, rather than building from scratch, but his discussion of pricing did seem to indicate a huge part was battery capacity and engine power.

 

[Quentin SF]

Yes, @Penn, I'm in the same situation, and I agree with your comment about this thread mirroring a lot of the popular myths (amongst the useful discussions).

My main car has been electric for the last four years now, and I can't imagine buying another fossil-burner again for that role. Everything is just so much nicer, though I admit it did get a lot easier when I moved house and had a driveway!

I also have a T5-based diesel van, which I bought just over a year ago, but I'm pretty sure that my next van will be at least partly-electric. We may end up with hydrogen being the main fuel for larger vehicles eventually, but there are quite a few hurdles to jump before we get there. In the meantime, diesel or petrol will need to continue for some time, and, while I'd prefer not to use it, I don't mind so much when it isn't my daily driver.

What I'd really like, and would buy promptly if anyone made it, is the excellent 'range-extender' arrangement thatI have in my i3: a vehicle which is predominantly battery for all normal use but with a small fuel-powered generator that can keep the charge topped up for longer and so extend the range when needed. (This is very different from a conventional hybrid, since the battery is large and the small engine never drives the wheels.) On the i3, I use a little petrol about once every two or three months, so the car averages about 1200 mpg. And that's on an elderly car from the days when they only came with a 70-mile battery range.

With today's batteries, you could easily make a van that did, say 200-250 miles between charges, so all your pottering around at your destination, or doing the school run at home, would be cheap and zero-emission. From where I live, that would cover our typical weekend trips to Norfolk without the need for any fuel or charging. But it it also had, say, a four-gallon tank and a small engine for when you wanted to extend the range with diesel, this would get you to your more distant destinations, and have the big advantage that you could still run a diesel heater when you got there.

 

[Penn]

Andrew Ditton just drove an electric 'white box' motorhome. The range is bigger than expected but so was the price.... A good Eur100k more than a similar diesel model (perhaps Eur130k).

Some of the cost is because the manufacturer converts an existing diesel model to elec, rather than building from scratch, but his discussion of pricing did seem to indicate a huge part was battery capacity and engine power.

I would think that a huge amount of the cost is just because it's new. Seems hard to justify 100k increase in cost for batterys and motor when you could buy brand new tesla batteries and a couple hyper 9 motors for 25k....

 

[Penn]

Yes, @Penn, I'm in the same situation, and I agree with your comment about this thread mirroring a lot of the popular myths (amongst the useful discussions).

My main car has been electric for the last four years now, and I can't imagine buying another fossil-burner again for that role. Everything is just so much nicer, though I admit it did get a lot easier when I moved house and had a driveway!

I also have a T5-based diesel van, which I bought just over a year ago, but I'm pretty sure that my next van will be at least partly-electric. We may end up with hydrogen being the main fuel for larger vehicles eventually, but there are quite a few hurdles to jump before we get there. In the meantime, diesel or petrol will need to continue for some time, and, while I'd prefer not to use it, I don't mind so much when it isn't my daily driver.

What I'd really like, and would buy promptly if anyone made it, is the excellent 'range-extender' arrangement thatI have in my i3: a vehicle which is predominantly battery for all normal use but with a small fuel-powered generator that can keep the charge topped up for longer and so extend the range when needed. (This is very different from a conventional hybrid, since the battery is large and the small engine never drives the wheels.) On the i3, I use a little petrol about once every two or three months, so the car averages about 1200 mpg. And that's on an elderly car from the days when they only came with a 70-mile battery range.

With today's batteries, you could easily make a van that did, say 200-250 miles between charges, so all your pottering around at your destination, or doing the school run at home, would be cheap and zero-emission. From where I live, that would cover our typical weekend trips to Norfolk without the need for any fuel or charging. But it it also had, say, a four-gallon tank and a small engine for when you wanted to extend the range with diesel, this would get you to your more distant destinations, and have the big advantage that you could still run a diesel heater when you got there.

I love the i3, I was going to buy one before the egolf but with 3 kids I needed the 5 seats. I would have thought if you had the REX style unleaded engine in a camper it would be more efficient to run everything in the camper off the high voltage batteries, anything between 35kwh-100kwh battery packs would be equivalent to having 120 to 400 odd 12v leisure batteries on hand!

 

[Borris]

WITH ALL THAT'S HAPPENING... WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT KEEPING/BUYING CALIFORNIA DIESELS RIGHT NOW?
I've just bought one. I wasn't offered an electric, hydrogen cell, petrol, wind, or pedal powered alternative, just diesel. So how do I feel? Well since there isn't any other choice, I feel just fine.

Sorry, I'm not shouting, I'm just using my mobile which I only ever do whilst on holiday. So just put it down to finger trouble.

 

[Eber123]

Good evening,

I believe for the moment and in the foreseeable future (what ever this is) I don't believe there will be massive problems with our diesel engine propelled California vehicles. I believe that just the cost for diesel and tax will increase every year.

But, let's say I invest in my dream to upgrade from my T6 2WD California Ocean to the T6.1 4Motion California Ocean, I can expect that this vehicle will last for at least 25 years.

I also assume that I won't be able to use it for this long, meaning at some time in the future, for argument sake in 15 years, I have to sell it because I can't use it anymore.

And here I think comes the challenge. Will there be a market for a used diesel California or will it be a write off? But who can look into the future, says you? Nobody, but looking at the signs, the discussion the trend might give some indication. Unfortunately I can't read those.

Our VW dealer told us there will be new legislation in Ireland about tax on (diesel) cars. It might be quite high, to discourage potential buyers to buy a diesel car. For me petrol is not the answer either. Because of this we will wait a wee bit to see how it turns out. But if there are some indication of changes in October 2019, will there be more, even radical changes, in the years to come?

It feels to me that at the moment it is not an ideal time to purchase a car.

Regards,
Eberhard

 

[2into1]

Based on the Andrew Ditton link I posted earlier, I suspect in 20 years, you'll be able to rip out the engine and install an electric motor and batteries. It's not like electric vehicles hover or levitate. The tech is in the motor and the batteries, so fitting them into older vehicles will become big business. Long live the Cali!

 

[Geoff York]

We have a Cali that's less than a year old, we love it. We've been asked by others about whether we think it's a good idea to buy one now, given:
a) the electric version is out in the UK in Autumn '19
b) all the anti-diesel moves by the govt

We just don't know what to say. Would you say go for a Diesel or wait for the Electric if you were buying now? And if you have a relatively new one, is anyone spurred/worried enough to sell their Cali because of the electric offering and/or the anti-diesel moves (blocked from entering cities, higher rates of tax etc)?

Electric Cali ..... the devils spawn !!
Range 120 miles on a good day then stop for 40 minutes to recharge 80% of battery
Good luck on a tour
Almost nil campsites with charging points

 

[Borris]

I don't know how long the average Cali owner keeps their van but I suspect that for the vast majority it won't be long enough this conversation to be of anyour real importance. I am currently waiting for our new Cali to be delivered. I doubt very much if I will still own it five years time. So since there isn't any viable alternatives at the moment and aren't likely to be for some considerable time, for most of us there's no point in getting too worked up.

 

[Digger]

The manufacturers are still releasing and intent on new models which will be diesel or hybrid diesel for smaller versions. If you are unsure and unhappy sell. Otherwise enjoy a freedom which in about 25 years will be unheard of. Politicians will continue failing and life will go on.

 

[vmaxkiddy]

Based on the Andrew Ditton link I posted earlier, I suspect in 20 years, you'll be able to rip out the engine and install an electric motor and batteries. It's not like electric vehicles hover or levitate. The tech is in the motor and the batteries, so fitting them into older vehicles will become big business. Long live the Cali!

VW e-up parts used for a Beetle conversion, https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...swagen-creates-electric-conversion-kit-beetle
Conversion kits available for several classic VW, including a Bus.

EV Conversion Kits, EV West - Electric Vehicle Parts, Components, EVSE Charging Stations, Electric Car Conversion Kits

 

[Ch1pbutty]

100% Electric Camper Conversions | Electric Campervans

Electric Campervans With £0 Road Tax & Congestion Charges. Electric VW T2/Danbury Campervan Conversions, Call: 01273 493 032 For More Info.

electric-campers.com

 

[Borris]

100% Electric Camper Conversions | Electric Campervans

Electric Campervans With £0 Road Tax & Congestion Charges. Electric VW T2/Danbury Campervan Conversions, Call: 01273 493 032 For More Info.

electric-campers.com

They will have to improve on a range of 100 miles for a camper van. Mind you the petrol version would probably have either broken down or caught fire before that 100 miles were up!

 

[GSX1300R]

Petrol Engine Van at 25mpg if you are lucky.....Diesel Engine van at 35mpg maybe more. There wont be Electric vans for 5-10 years....and like the previous post said The Government will want their pound of flesh AND they will get it. The cost for charging vehicles will rocket and it will make Diesels look cheap.

 

[GSX1300R]

100% Electric Camper Conversions | Electric Campervans

Electric Campervans With £0 Road Tax & Congestion Charges. Electric VW T2/Danbury Campervan Conversions, Call: 01273 493 032 For More Info.

electric-campers.com

UP TO 100 miles. Brilliant...... and only 45K I think I will stay with my T5 140 SE

 

[s2bear]

I’m not losing sleep over my Diesel Cali yet.
We have no choice anyway and Campervans generally have a longer lifespan than cars - there are already several companies converting older cars to hybrid or full electric for either performance and or green reasons so who knows where that’s going to lead.

Porsche have just launched their 300mile (claimed) range car which can charge to 80% in under 20 mins which they hope to be able to almost half in time. However, that’s all well and good until you pull into a service station on a French autoroute and find a massive queue for chargers.

If we all bought one tomorrow the National Grid would collapse. Plus it will probably still be fossil generated power right now.

I don’t trust any government not to tax the next big thing from *rsehole to Christmas and I’ve no desire to stick a £70k bet on the automotive equivalent of Laserdisc, VHS or Betamax. I think Hydrogen Fuel Cells should be the future but think I’ll wait it out with my Diesel until then.

Maybe a good solution to alleviate people’s fears in the meantime would be physically standardized battery packs which are leased separately from the vehicle.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[jeannie]

Aren't trucks going to Hydrogen. You can refuel them, just like diesel, so range is limitless (providing you are going were trucks go). I just can't see electric being the future. The infrastructure costs are prohibitive for a start. Major changes to the National Grid would be required to put large recharging stations up and down the motorways. Just my thoughts.

My brother worked on the hydrogen car and I remember a big news event in the early 90’s when he drove it down to Brighton and all the press were enthralled
Nothing happened after that

 

[Anthony1]

My brother worked on the hydrogen car and I remember a big news event in the early 90’s when he drove it down to Brighton and all the press were enthralled
Nothing happened after that

Its such a shame they can't split water into its component parts easily or cheaply as both are (ironically) explosive.

 

[66tim99]

My brother worked on the hydrogen car and I remember a big news event in the early 90’s when he drove it down to Brighton and all the press were enthralled
Nothing happened after that

I worked briefly on safeguarding land for hydrogen filling stations in the City of Westminster. Members were concerned that petrol filling stations were being lost for redevelopment, and ordered some horizon scanning for future fuels. Hydrogen buses had emerged (the RV1 into Covent Garden is hydrogen powered) and TfL explained how difficult/expensive it was to run that fleet, not least because the subterranean tanks of explosive hydrogen needed to be enormous.