Updated Bolt-on Cali and T5/6 Solar Panels for 2017

[estresao]

Welshgas is spot on. There are no lockable nuts. I've not heard of a theft yet and I'm sure customers would be in touch with me if it had happened, and I've been selling bolt on kits for other types of vans for around 4 years now.

The Beach cable run to the battery is actually dead easy. Once in the jack compartment you can poke the wire out the bottom gap, then lay it all the way to the front then simply push it under the plastic side panels. The cable goes under and then tucks up in place behind. You just push it with a finger / blunt screwdriver.

How visible the kit is from a pedestrian point of view? To me the more unnoticed the better

 

[Roger Donoghue]

One of my customers bought these on my recommendation:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M6-M8-M10...hash=item33ce5372fa:m:mmVAr_gTJMD26roXHSmI8zg

M6 nuts that need a special tool to undo them. Won't stop someone forever, but will certainly stop an opportunist.

Pedestrian visibility is low. You have to be looking for it, unless your car is parked lower than them , or you have the roof up!

 

[estresao]

Thanks Roger, I'll consider that option.

 

[Teejay]

Earlier in the thread Roger talks about an equalisation charge that cleans the plates. When going through our instructions with him he mentioned that his research had concluded not to equalise AGM batteries since it can give off fumes. Any battery experts around know for sure if it's a good thing or not?

So far very happy by the way.

.. Message ends..

 

[Roger Donoghue]

Hi Teejay, was good to meet you last week.

I've done a bit more research.

When you plug in the VW to the mains, the battery charger gives a bulk charge then a float charge, like all chargers do really. Except the engine charging can't give a float charge. This is the bit that very gently tops up all the individual cells in each battery so they match, and means your battery is 100% full. This is why VW recommend plugging in once in a while.

The solar charger does this too ( all of them). So no need for you monthly hook up charge any more. This is known as float / trickle charge. It gets confusing because it equalises the voltage across all the cells....

The "equalisation" charging option on the Victron chargers is actually something quite different, a desulphation charge. And you don't want to do it often, and only when you think your batteries are getting tired.

It puts 16 v into the cells for a while, overcharging them. This makes the outer layers of the lead plates fall off, removing sulphate crystals at the same time. These crystals are what causes the battery to deteriorate. At the same time the acid bubbles, and in doing so mixes it all up evenly... Or....equalising it. Hence the name.

This process slowly diminishes the lead plates, and can cause fumes, so it's best left until you need to revive old batteries. I don't recommend running it automatically. Only when needed.

 

[Roger Donoghue]

Hi All, a little update for 2018. We are now using EFTE panels - these are textured which absorbs more light, and, our current panels are 110w - same dimensions, 10W extra, same price

We also now sell Western Co. Dual battery MPPT chargers - bluetooth capable. You don't need a special charger for multiple leisure batteries, they will all work , but when you want to charge your leisure battery/ies AND your starter battery this is one of the only ways with MPPT. This charger connects to an app on your phone (iOS and Android) via bluetooth - for monitoring charging, battery levels etc.

If you want me to do the installation you will need to get a garage to run a fused live (17amp cable is plenty sufficient) from the engine bay starter battery area to where you want your solar regulator as this work is beyond the scope of what I have time to do with installations. It's not a big job, but it usually involves going under the van to run the cable, or routing the cable through the bulkhead.

 

[Loz]

If you want me to do the installation you will need to get a garage to run a fused live (17amp cable is plenty sufficient) from the engine bay starter battery area to where you want your solar regulator as this work is beyond the scope of what I have time to do with installations. It's not a big job, but it usually involves going under the van to run the cable, or routing the cable through the bulkhead.

What's wrong with using the primary battery feed to the split charge relay under the passenger seat?

 

[Roger Donoghue]

Nothing at all! I'm all ears - I don't know the intricacies of the Cali wiring.

So there is a starter live going to a relay under the passenger seat? Could you point me in the direction of a photo/info on identifying it.

Thanks!

R

 

[Loz]

Nothing at all! I'm all ears - I don't know the intricacies of the Cali wiring.

So there is a starter live going to a relay under the passenger seat? Could you point me in the direction of a photo/info on identifying it.

Thanks!

R

Connection on relay right is the feed from the 100A fuse in Fuse box A under starter battery via an 80A fuse
2 on the left are the 2 leisure battery cables.

This is the plug that controls the split charge relay it is live when the engine is running.

Relay mounted bottom left under passenger seat.


Section of wiring diagram to suit.


View attachment 30262

 

[Roger Donoghue]

Brilliant, thanks for that.

 

[Jonathan Duke]

I have a 150 T6 Beach with three seat bench.I am confident that I could have managed alone.

Hi Tom! Hope you are well!

With a Beach the same as yours.... And a 6-week trip coming up later in the year..... Plus, as we mostly (90%) of the time wild-camp, I am considering rooftop solar panels like yours. We almost always drive every day, however with the fridge, overnight heater, laptops, phones etc etc..... Should we decide, like I did last weekend, to stay-put for a few days, having some solar is perhaps a good move.

To-date, we haven't had any issues, and have never ran out of leisure battery..... But I do like to idea of "fit and forgot" solar top-up charging.

Some quick questions......

1. Would you install same again?
2. Do you have to clean the panels (bird poo, tree sap etc etc.....)
3. Do you get any wind noise, or creaks, whilst driving relating to the panels installation.

Many thanks! Jon.

 

[WelshGas]

Hi Tom! Hope you are well!

With a Beach the same as yours.... And a 6-week trip coming up later in the year..... Plus, as we mostly (90%) of the time wild-camp, I am considering rooftop solar panels like yours. We almost always drive every day, however with the fridge, overnight heater, laptops, phones etc etc..... Should we decide, like I did last weekend, to stay-put for a few days, having some solar is perhaps a good move.

To-date, we haven't had any issues, and have never ran out of leisure battery..... But I do like to idea of "fit and forgot" solar charging.

Some quick questions......

1. Would you install same again?
2. Do you have to clean the panels (bird poo, tree sap etc etc.....)
3. Do you get any wind noise, or creaks, whilst driving relating to the panels installation.

Many thanks! Jon.

I have this system on my SE for the past 3 yrs.
In answer to your questions.

1. YES
2. Infrequently and certainly no more than you would clean that stuff off the roof anyway.
3. NO

 

[Amarillo]

Hi Tom! Hope you are well!

With a Beach the same as yours.... And a 6-week trip coming up later in the year..... Plus, as we mostly (90%) of the time wild-camp, I am considering rooftop solar panels like yours. We almost always drive every day, however with the fridge, overnight heater, laptops, phones etc etc..... Should we decide, like I did last weekend, to stay-put for a few days, having some solar is perhaps a good move.

To-date, we haven't had any issues, and have never ran out of leisure battery..... But I do like to idea of "fit and forgot" solar charging.

Some quick questions......

1. Would you install same again?

I think that I'd still go for 200 or 220 watt but I'd want some sort of iPhone monitor of charging and battery. I'd also want a switch to be able to charge the engine battery and/or use the leisure battery to jump start the engine in an emergency. It is not that I've every needed such a facility, but I'd rather have that low cost back up facility and not need it than need it and not have it.

2. Do you have to clean the panels (bird poo, tree sap etc etc.....)

I've cleaned them once in 9 months, a 5 minute job, and immediately saw a 5-10% increase in output. They probably should be cleaned at least every 3 months but it's not critical.

3. Do you get any wind noise, or creaks, whilst driving relating to the panels installation.

I have never noticed anything.

200 watts was more than enough for us in the long summer days in Scandinavia with a high sun. Fridge, phones, iPads, lighting. In the winter months with shorter days, a lower sun, more cloud cover and lights on more often, we started struggling. But that may be mainly down to damaging the battery by draining it with a 12 volt 20 amp kettle (the battery never now has more than 3 out of 5 bars on the solar charger: 50-70% charge).



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[AlanC]

snip
I think that I'd still go for 200 or 220 watt but I'd want some sort of iPhone monitor of charging and battery. I'd also want a switch to be able to charge the engine battery and/or use the leisure battery to jump start the engine in an emergency. It is not that I've every needed such a facility, but I'd rather have that low cost back up facility and not need it than need it and not have it.

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I would not advise anyone to consider using the leisure batteries to start the engine of the Cali. The engine battery is designed to take the deep sudden discharge the the starter motor will require. Hence they are made as wet acid types with substantial lead plates and wiring to cope the the current draw. The alternator will provide the 45+ amps DC it will need to recharge it straight after this high current drain.

Leisure batteries are designed for slow lower current discharge, usually Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) which will charge quicker but accept a slower but deeper discharge. Ideal for solar panel charging systems.
However, they are not suitable for the sudden high current drain the starter motor will require. The other advantage of AGM is that, should the battery become damaged, it should not leak any of the acid electrolyte.

N.B. All lead acid batteries must be charged straight after any use and kept fully charged. Leaving them in a discharged state will also damage them. Another solar advantage provided your van is not sitting in a garage.

Alan

 

[Max-Felix]

IIRC from previous topics (but I may be confused!) the leisure battery on the Beach was a bog standard el cheapo 'whatever VW could get away with' lead acid...?

To come back to solar - I tried it last year as the older Cali we bought for the summer had typically tired batteries and fitting solar was ideal compared to renewing them for our short ownership and alleviated all battery worries. No need to worry about drain from lights/fridge/heater etc especially when the van was not moved for a few days. It's a no brainer IMHO - virtually no hooking up so save a packet in hook up costs, hook up hassle, trailing wires etc and it's so cheap and sensible as a fit and forget battery top up system and just allows simple worry free camping with an end to 'battery anxiety'. And as long as you park outside it will keep the batteries in the state they like to be through the winter. Strongly advise going for iPhone control - it's a brilliant little app that makes you smile every time you see that 'free' power going into your system. We got back a big chunk of our initial outlay in saved hook up fees in just the one trip last summer and took the set up off our van and will install it on the new one this year.

 

[Loz]

All mine are AGM (needed for the regenerative braking surg) here is my starter battery.

 

[Max-Felix]

Loz - this was the topic I remembered below - this was just on the Beach though and maybe then just early models? I don't know just posting for info.

https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/help-with-leisure-battery.18713/

 

[Amarillo]

I would not advise anyone to consider using the leisure batteries to start the engine of the Cali. The engine battery is designed to take the deep sudden discharge the the starter motor will require. Hence they are made as wet acid types with substantial lead plates and wiring to cope the the current draw. The alternator will provide the 45+ amps DC it will need to recharge it straight after this high current drain.

Leisure batteries are designed for slow lower current discharge, usually Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) which will charge quicker but accept a slower but deeper discharge. Ideal for solar panel charging systems.
However, they are not suitable for the sudden high current drain the starter motor will require. The other advantage of AGM is that, should the battery become damaged, it should not leak any of the acid electrolyte.

My knowledge of batteries is very limited. I know the difference between an AA cell and a car battery, and have recently learned that car batteries differ, but little more than that. However, I can say with ~80% certainty that my leisure and starter batteries are the same AGM batteries.




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[AlanC]

My knowledge of batteries is very limited. I know the difference between an AA cell and a car battery, and have recently learned that car batteries differ, but little more than that. However, I can say with ~80% certainty that my leisure and starter batteries are the same AGM batteries.




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That could well be the case now Tom.

However, the AGM part is only a way of having the acid in the battery safely contained/non spill. The design of the engine battery will still be such that it can take the current drain that starting the engine entails.

A leisure battery doesn't need to be capable of this. The part numbers may well be different.

Alan

 

[soulstyledevon]

Looking at the MPPT Chargers.
Which one is best supported and most reliable...?

Would the 100w system be sufficient for the Beach as there is only one 80A leisure battery...?

I have a C-Tek battery charger connected to my leisure battery when on hook-up. Will the solar charger detect the leisure battery charging from another source and stop charging the leisure battery. If you follow what i mean...?

 

[Roger Donoghue]

The MPPT chargers are all great and perform exactly the same - (I've not had one failure yet, on any of the MPPT chargers - that's over 5 odd years of selling them. The key differences are:

LCD display or Bluetooth link to phone
Ability to charge starter battery too.

100W is good enough for a couple camping in the British summer with a fridge, phone charging, lights , water pump etc. 80Ah is enough , in the summer, with good weather. I camped with 100w on a 75Ah battery for a while (2 years - not continuous!). Add bad weather, or a cluster of phone addicted teens and I'd add a second battery, or another panel. Thing is, with a signle 80Ah battery - regardless of how much solar you have, it still has to get you through the night, which a good condition 80Ah battery will do easily, as long as you leave the phone and tablet charging until day time. You can still charge a phone overnight, just if you start charging multiple devices, watch the TV etc, you might find your fridge "hunting" for power - but this only really happens if you start the night with a less than full battery - i.e. the weather was not that great during the day.

The solar chargers will see the battery as full when you plug in any other source of charging (CTek, split charging) and back off - so you dont' get a conflict. All Lead acid chargers work on the basis of checking the battery voltage level - if it is at a certain point they see it as full. Whichever is on first, and charges with the most power will take over the charging task.

 

[Amarillo]

Roger - you might be able to help me here.

I bought two 100 Watt panels from you last year for year round use with my Beach.

Throughout the summer all worked perfectly: 100 or so nights without hookup, fridge always cold, phones and tablets fully charged, and battery seemingly always full - though I didn't check very often.

Then we bought a 12 volt kettle, camped under a tree, and drained the battery. Since then I monitored the battery more closely. Unless charging in bright sunshine, the charger shows 3 or occasionally 4 out of 5 bars for the battery. I assumed I had damaged it through use of the 12 volt kettle, but I took it to a VW service centre in Palermo who spent several hours running diagnostic tests on the battery, and they said there is nothing wrong with it.

How accurate is the MTTP charge controller display at showing the charge in the battery? I'd been assuming the following.
0 bars - < 10%
1 bar - 10 to 30%
2 bars - 30 to 50%
3 bars - 50 to 70%
4 bars - 70 to 90%
5 bars - > 90%

The battery is an AGM and I have no other monitor for its condition.


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[Roger Donoghue]

The bars on the chargers are deceiving at best. The problem is, you can't tell how much charge is in a lead acid battery when it is eithr being charged, or being used - so teh only time you can tell, is at night, with ALL loads off - no lights , nothing.

When you charge a battery, even a low charge, it immediately lifts the voltage - significantly - even though very little charge may be going in. Put a 50% battery on solar charge with, say 4 amps, and it will jump to max bars very quickly as the battery climbs over 13.8 volts. Switch off the solar and the voltage, and therfore the bars, will drop quickly to where they really belong. Under charging the battery can climb as high as 14.4 volts as you have to put more in than the battery voltage, or it won't take any charge.

Same with loads. Switch a fridge on with a 100% full battery and it will drag it to around 12.2 volts - which the charger will see as around half empty!

Then add the complication of charging AND using loads, and it never makes sense !

Below is what I include with all kits. In summary, the real way to tell is to switch off all loads and look at night A full battery is 12.6v at rest (no charge or load)

A note below about the battery graphic on the MPPT charge controllers:

The battery graphic symbol with the bars in it is quite misleading. This is because you can’t tell if a battery is full or empty when it is under load (being used), or , being charged.

A full battery rests at 12.6 volts. This is at “rest” – i.e. not being charged, nor being used. Basically, disconnected. It is flat when it is at 11.9 volts

The moment you start charging it (i.e. solar charging, or split relay charging with the engine running) it’s impossible to tell it’s state as the charging raises the voltage of the battery, masking it’s true state of charge. The same is true when you use the battery (put it under load). As soon as you start using the battery its voltage will drop. You could use this new voltage to ascertain how full/empty it is, but, you’d be wrong as as soon as you switched off the load, the battery voltage climbs back up a fair bit.

As you can see , it’s hard to know the battery level when in use/being charged. The battery might be nearly full, but your fridge drags it down to 12.24 volts – which you’d think is half empty, but when you switch the fridge off, it climbs back up to 12.45 volts (75% full). Similarly, it might be sunny, which lifts the voltage high as the solar is doing its trick, but when the sun goes in, the voltage drops a bit.

With not much load, and some decent sun, the battery will eventually show as full because it will have climbed to 14.4 volts. The charger thinks 11.8 volts is empty (correct) and that 13.8 volts is full (incorrect – it’s true when being charged, but not when it isn’t being charged – batteries are charged to over 14 volts as part of the charging process). This is why the battery icon is misleading.

The best way to get an idea of the battery capacity is to look at the voltage, not the icon. Switch as many thirsty things off, like your fridge etc. and look at the voltage. This will only work at dusk/night/in grey weather as the solar charging during the day will skew the figures. As a good guideline:

12.60v . . . . . . . . . . 100%
12.45v . . . . . . . . . . 75%
12.24v . . . . . . . . . . 50%
12.06v . . . . . . . . . . 25%
11.89v . . . . . . . . . . 0%

It is not unusual to see your battery drop to the low 12’s at night when the fridge is running, with no sun, then recover to over 13v in the morning as the sun comes up. How fast it drops at night depends on the capacity and age of your leisure battery. As a guide, a new 100Ah battery will run a compressor fridge for around 2 to 3 days with no charging help.

 

[Roger Donoghue]

p.s. the only damage you would have done to your battery is if you run it well below 10 volts, and then, severe damage if you leave it like that . They are never the same after.

Also batteries have a finite cycle life. Usually 300 to 500 cycles. I've found that around 3 years is the mark where regularly used leisure batteries lose their edge. A new 100Ah battery will run a compressor fridge for 2.5+ days. a 3 year old battery will often not make it past 1.5 days (without any charging of course)

 

[Amarillo]

Wow Roger - what a comprehensive response. The garage in Palermo disconnected everything, fully charged the battery, rested it for at least 30 minutes and ran a crank test. It exceeded the battery's crank rating. The voltage was perfect.

You have explained the display well and my mind is at rest.

Two separate questions

1. Can I buy a Bluetooth plugin for the controller to monitor usage on my phone?

2. Can I add something to keep the starter battery topped up from solar?


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