Adblue - where are fellow T6 owners getting topped up

[Stoneybroke]

A response from @ShellStationsUK

Hi,we are sorry to hear this. Can you please DM us your phone and email, we would like to investigate this fully. Many thanks.

Just had to tweet them to say I can't DM them as they are not following me! (I did try, but it was bounced)

 

[Meoncoast]

I have also e-mailed Shell and BP but no reply as yet.

 

[Jabberwocky]

A response from @ShellStationsUK

Hi,we are sorry to hear this. Can you please DM us your phone and email, we would like to investigate this fully. Many thanks.

Just had to tweet them to say I can't DM them as they are not following me! (I did try, but it was bounced)

Stirling work SB. Keep at it

 

[Jabberwocky]

With the AdBlue message giving 1000 miles to top up, I looked up local garages with AdBlue pumps, as it seems this is much better value than buying a container from Halfords or wherever.
The nearest was about 13 miles away, and a short detour from a planned journey.
I pulled into the forecourt of the Shell garage with the pumps, but on placing the dispenser in the AdBlue filler was greeted by the tannoy announcing that the AdBlue pump was only for HGV's....
I went into the kiosk/shop and asked where I could fill up the Cali, "we sell bottles for cars, only HGV's can use the pumps."
"How much are the bottles?" I ask.
"£9.99"
"For how much?"
"One-and-a-half litres" came the reply.
A short discussion followed with what I asked them to justify the difference in the pump price of
69.9 pence per litre
(For HGV's only)
And the cost of
£6.66 per litre for the rest of us.

"Company policy" was the only answer.

I declined their offer of AdBlue at their rip-off price, and made a point of stating that I would not be filling up with diesel either.

I was fuming; ridiculous. The next six-hours of driving planning who to write to, but them wondered, in this world of franchises, whether the company policy was the garage itself out Shell UK generally.

So, fellow Cali owners, any other experiences with AdBlue discrimination?

Out of interest......Obviously the HGV stand was selling Shell Adblue. Do you recall what brand was on sale in the shop? Bet is wasn't Shell and that the Garage is a franchise. Shell wont like that!

 

[Stoneybroke]

Out of interest......Obviously the HGV stand was selling Shell Adblue. Do you recall what brand was on sale in the shop? Bet is wasn't Shell and that the Garage is a franchise. Shell wont like that!

No I didn't bother looking as the price was ridiculous!

 

[Jabberwocky]

No I didn't bother looking as the price was ridiculous!

I guess!

 

[Loz]

Trading Standards and watchdog might be interested..

 

[Amarillo]

Trading Standards and watchdog might be interested.

As a general principle, retailers have a right to refuse a sale but if a sale is made it must be at the advertised price.

However, overriding that general principle, they cannot discriminate on the basis of race, religion, gender or age (except for for example, alcohol or tobacco products). A recent case in Northern Ireland means that they cannot discriminate on the basis of sexuality either.

However, that is still some way off discrimination on the basis of the vehicle class you drive being illegal. I think that a legal challenge would fail on this.

In this case, Stoneybroke was refused a sale of Adblue at 69p per litre, instead being offered Adblue at £6.66 per litre. I expect a valid defence for the retailer is that pre-packaged Adblue is a different product, and so a legal challenge may well fail this point also.

Still, it is not very good PR for Shell, even though the responsibility is with their franchisee.

 

[Loz]

As a general principle, retailers have a right to refuse a sale but if a sale is made it must be at the advertised price.

Still, it is not very good PR for Shell, even though the responsibility is with their franchisee.

Of course you're quite right, seeing as watchdog are busy with the roof corrosion issue, maybe this is one for Angela Rippon and Rip off Britain?

 

[Amarillo]

Of course you're quite right, seeing as watchdog are busy with the roof corrosion issue, maybe this is one for Angela Rippon and Rip off Britain?

I think that Shell would be able to give a reasonable answer.
1. It is not our responsibility, it is the responsibility of the franchisee
2. Adblue is a relatively new product. Pump dispensed Adblue is for HGVs; these pumps have a high flow rate for large tanks, if used in smaller tanks on cars and vans it could be a health and safety hazard due to splashing.
3. We plan to roll out pump dispensed Adblue for smaller vehicles in the very near future.
4. In the meantime, customers can buy Adblue in pre-packaged containers at most of out franchisee operated forecourts. Pricing is set by our franchisees, but our recommended prices are £x for 5L, £y for 10L with a premium for smaller top up packs with special filling nozzles.

 

[calicasas]

That's going to be fun to

Adblue has been used in hgv's for some time and is both effective and reliable. If you want to buy a diesel now or use in the future you have no option. It is the only diesel engines now allowed to be built or sold new to meet euro6 requirements and would seem to be accepted by the councils looking to ban other diesels. We don't have any choice.

That's going to be fun to police? Imagine roadside checks to ensure you have your adblue added. Glad I don't live in a built up area... Will they ban Euro 5 engines from the metropolis? I don't think that will happen any time soon...

 

[Amarillo]

That's going to be fun to police? Imagine roadside checks to ensure you have your adblue added.

It should be pretty much self-policing.

If an Adblue tank is empty, the engine needs to be kept running constantly. If it isn't, the engine will not restart.

I expect there are ways that a talented mechanic, or even a rogue manufacturer (surely VW wouldn't do such a thing), could trick the engine into believing it had Adblue. I would hope this would be picked up at the next MOT.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Edited to move to correct thread - Sorry

 

[Jabberwocky]

Edited to be on correct thread - sorry.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I think that Shell would be able to give a reasonable answer.
1. It is not our responsibility, it is the responsibility of the franchisee
2. Adblue is a relatively new product. Pump dispensed Adblue is for HGVs; these pumps have a high flow rate for large tanks, if used in smaller tanks on cars and vans it could be a health and safety hazard due to splashing.
3. We plan to roll out pump dispensed Adblue for smaller vehicles in the very near future.
4. In the meantime, customers can buy Adblue in pre-packaged containers at most of out franchisee operated forecourts. Pricing is set by our franchisees, but our recommended prices are £x for 5L, £y for 10L with a premium for smaller top up packs with special filling nozzles.

But for me the point is the garage did offer to sell the Adblue at 69p per litre. It was advertised on the forecourt. The question is, was it clear and was it stated at the point of sale that it was only for HGV customers. i.e. a clear sign at the pump or at the entry to the lane, for example, that the pumps were for HGV customers only.

The public address system advising the non HGV customer that it cant be sold to them is hardly the same and not a substitute for clear signage especially as there was no reasonable reason given other than "company policy" when challenged.

If it was not clear that the 69p/litre was only for HGV customers then after an offer had been made it is surely illegal to withdraw it if favour of an alternative at a higher price.

I think the issue of the price differential is another matter altogether. Shell would only have answer this point if the Pre-packaged Adblue was their branded product.

If it was a franchised dealer and the pre-packaged Adblue was of another brand I am sure Shell would have a few strong words with the owner as I am sure there would be a clause in the contract stating a requirement to maximise the sales of Shell products. Clearly this did not happen in this case.

It will be interesting what Shell have to say.

As a matter of interest anyone have experience of Adblue prices and availability in Mainland Europe in the context of the above?

 

[Stoneybroke]

Just to say I got as far as getting the nozzle in the Cali - not spent compatibility problems there.
Publicity - I shall wait and see what the response is from Shell UK, but this combination of issues leading to this environmental extortion may be of to the likes of Jeremy Vine, who covers 20 typical subjects a week (4-per prrogramme). After all, every diesel vehicle sold under the new Euro6 rules will have AdBlue, so many motorists will be affected, yet unaware of the price differentials out there.

Is there a bigger competion issue here too? The actual product is a 32.5% aqueous solution of urea, which, I recon,, like most bulk chemical solutions, will cost pennies per litre to produce.

Urea is produced in massive quantites for agriculture as a fertiliser, a quick Google shows it is sold at about £300 per ton (though as a commodity it is quite variable). 1-metric tonne of urea will produce 3077 litres of AdBlue meaning each litre contain less than 10p worth of urea.

Granted costs of AdBlue grade urea may be slightly higher if fertiliser grade is less rigourously controlled, but it still gives an indication of the mark ups.
Oh, and there is VAT for the consumers too.

As for me, whilst this goes on, I did not want a special journey to the next nearest garages (though I would have phoned first) but was passing Halfords yesterday and 10-litres for £14 is just about the cheapest container to collect, so that went in the Cali yesterday. It was clean and easy, though initially poured very slowly - using a bradawl to puncture the container solved that.

 

[Amarillo]

But for me the point is the garage did offer to sell the Adblue at 69p per litre. It was advertised on the forecourt. The question is, was it clear and was it stated at the point of sale that it was only for HGV customers. i.e. a clear sign at the pump or at the entry to the lane, for example, that the pumps were for HGV customers only.

The public address system advising the non HGV customer that it cant be sold to them is hardly the same and not a substitute for clear signage especially as there was no reasonable reason given other than "company policy" when challenged.

If it was not clear that the 69p/litre was only for HGV customers then after an offer had been made it is surely illegal to withdraw it if favour of an alternative at a higher price.

It has been a very long time since I worked in retail management - nearly three decades.

A retailer who advertises a product for sale may withdraw that item from sale at any time before a sale has been made, and refuse the sale. But this is not what happened. The product was advertised for sale, Stoneybroke was refused the sale, but the product was not withdrawn from sale.

On this basis, Stoneybroke may just have a case. What I do not know is if refusing a sale on the basis of class of vehicle is justifiable.

 

[Jabberwocky]

It has been a very long time since I worked in retail management - nearly three decades.

A retailer who advertises a product for sale may withdraw that item from sale at any time before a sale has been made, and refuse the sale. But this is not what happened. The product was advertised for sale, Stoneybroke was refused the sale, but the product was not withdrawn from sale.

On this basis, Stoneybroke may just have a case. What I do not know is if refusing a sale on the basis of class of vehicle is justifiable.

Thanks for the benefit of your experience. It will be interesting to see how this will develop as more and more Euro6 diesels requiring AdBlue find their way on to our roads.

 

[Digger]

That's going to be fun to

That's going to be fun to police? Imagine roadside checks to ensure you have your adblue added. Glad I don't live in a built up area... Will they ban Euro 5 engines from the metropolis? I don't think that will happen any time soon...

I think pre Euro 5 engines will be first to be restricted or even excluded from cities. As for AdBlue, the engines will not run without it and any modification to tamper with system falls foul of the law and would cause unknown consequences to a private individual. As the additive seems to make the diesel engine more friendly to the environment it should extend the life of diesels for some time to come.

 

[snowy55]

I find it amazing how you can drive about in a £50k campervan and then get excited about the price of Adblu.

If a tank, as the first poster stated, does last 12000 miles then does it really matter if it costs £10 or £20 to refill?

Surely people must have more pressing matters to think about?

 

[Jabberwocky]

I find it amazing how you can drive about in a £50k campervan and then get excited about the price of Adblu.

If a tank, as the first poster stated, does last 12000 miles then does it really matter if it costs £10 or £20 to refill?

Surely people must have more pressing matters to think about?

You are right. I think it is the principals behind it that matter not the cost. Certainly this is the case for me.

(I'm of to restock my wine cellar after being ransacked over the festive season . Much more important.)

 

[Meoncoast]

double posted

 

[Meoncoast]

I think it is the principals behind it that matter not the cost. Certainly this is the case for me.

And I rather use a pump to put it in than faff about with a bottle and tube

 

[Stoneybroke]

Spoke to @ShellStationsUK this morning. The Twitter thing is too much for them, so they gave me an 0880 number.
I spoke to a polite lady in Manila, who assured me she was trained in UK issues.
After my explanation, which she appeared to listen to and, from the keyboard noises, take some notes, I got the answer I was half expecting...
Health & Safety.
The rationale for the 'Company Policy' was that the AdBlue pumps for HGV's were designed to deliver at 40-litres-per-minute, which was too fast for cars, which should be used at 2.5lpm.
"OK, but the pumps have variable flow nozzles controlled by a trigger..."
"Yes but the pressure is too high."
"Not according to other users who have filled at different service stations with pumps."
"Can you name those stations."
"Err. I don't think so as you might just stop them letting other drivers use them"

The conversation was a lot longer than that. I pointed out that Shell was treating some customers unfairly, but this didn't get through the H&S script she was sticking to. The price difference is not justified and she did not try to defend that, merely stating that AdBlue Pumps for cars may be available in the future.

I asked for details of someone in the company with a responsibility for these marketing or H&S Decisions that I could perhaps contact over my concerns. This was declined as she stated "Data Protection prevents me from giving out those details." (That from a customer services department based outside the UK/EU which, as they failed to get my permission to process my personal details outside the EU in a country that is not recognised as having sufficient protection - whole other issue there!) Anyway, I have asked if they could get someone to contact me.

Meanwhile, I have done some research and conclude that there may be issues raised under Competition Law as you cannot treat customers differently, eg by offering different prices or terms to similar customers if you have a 'dominant position' - not sure whether having the only AdBlue pump for x-miles would count.

 

[Stoneybroke]

I find it amazing how you can drive about in a £50k campervan and then get excited about the price of Adblu.

If a tank, as the first poster stated, does last 12000 miles then does it really matter if it costs £10 or £20 to refill?

Surely people must have more pressing matters to think about?

@snowy55 or £99.99 for 15-litres if I had bought it from the Shell Shop...
I think 12,000 miles is a bit hopeful too - more like 4000-5000 miles I believe.
It is more the principle than the price for me. I managed to lug a 10-litre container from Halfords, and lift it to waist height until empty - there are many who could not. The Urea solution that is AdBlue is not very pleasant either and has a limited shelf life, the forecourt pump should be a far more convenient and easier solution for many motorists. Perhaps a little adverse publicity will hasten the day when equal access to AdBlue at a reasonable price is available to all.
All new diesel cars from 2015 need AdBlue, and all larger vehicles require it from April 2017, so the AdBlue market is growing.
HGV Buyers of AdBlue have significant buying power in terms of volume purchased, trade body representation, and alternative suppliers (e.g. bulk deliveries to their own premises), that the individual private motorist or small business does not have. Shell, and perhaps the other large fuel retailers, are taking advantage of this and charging smaller users a premium of up to 1000% on their AdBlue requirements.
If the Diesel price on the HGV pumps was lower than the other pumps, would that be OK? Similar principles, perhaps?
But yes, I probably have got more pressing matters to attend to as well.