Coronavirus Impact

[Lightning]

Finland was prepared for Cold War invasion and possible chemical fall out from any conflict , not for a viral outbreak. So they got lucky they can now use those stocks.

The other Nordic countries equally susceptible to a cold war invasion, are not well prepared according to the article, so it’s not luck, it’s simply planning for ‘some sort of catastrophe’.

 

[Amarillo]

Just wonder 10 years ago, had any govt, whatever colour, said tell you what we will do, we will pre plan for something we don’t know that’s going to happen. Tell you what let’s spends millions on Face Masks, gloves, apron, tell you what let’s order 1000s f ventilators that we don’t need at the moment but we are going to buy them anyway and keep them in storage! Just in case.
Yep now everybody would have been saying what brilliant foresight.
10 years ago though when that decision was being discussed there would have been uproar! Why spend money on stuff that you may never use, spend it on something we need now!
let’s stop knocking the Govt and Govts all over the world for doing what they had to do at the time they did it.
Their is a vid of George Bush as president saying preparations and planning for a viral pandemic should be considered, the current global finances at the time had other priorities.
This sort of thing has happened in the past, things will happen in the future, its impossible to predict what and if it’s going to happen, nature is a sneaky beast. So its always going to be a case of react after it happens and catch up.

Ventilators and the Nightingale hospitals are two of the things the government appear to have broadly correct. Hideous as I find the idea of shipping critically ill patients out to mass field hospitals to recover or die distant from their families, I see little alternative if we are to be able to treat and assess incoming patients effectively. As far as I know, in the UK no difficult decisions have had to be made over who gets a ventilator and who doesn't. That may still change, but it is looking increasingly likely that it won't.

PPE and testing should have been ramped up from January/February. Germany, for example, has repurposed animal vaccine labs for coronavirus testing. It might not be appropriate in this country, but I would have thought that at the very least the staff could be retrained. I'm not sure how South Korea and Taiwan managed to ramp up testing so effectively. But they did it.

 

[Amarillo]

The other Nordic countries equally susceptible to a cold war invasion, are not well prepared according to the article, so it’s not luck, it’s simply planning for ‘some sort of catastrophe’.

And the nuclear bunker in Rovaniemi is used in peacetime as a giant amusement park attracting 600,000 visitors a year: Santa's Grotto, ready to be turned back into a nuclear shelter at a moment's notice.

 

[Lightning]

This article suggests that any subsequent enquiry will probably need to investigate this in depth.

Revealed: value of UK pandemic stockpile fell by 40% in six years

£325m wiped off value of health department’s emergency stockpile including PPE

www.theguardian.com

 

[Jay gas]

The other Nordic countries equally susceptible to a cold war invasion, are not well prepared according to the article, so it’s not luck, it’s simply planning for ‘some sort of catastrophe’.

No quite right. Finland was never a member of nato and was used as a buffer between nato in the west and the soviets in the east. So Finland have stockpiled in case of invasion or war. Not being part of nato they wouldn’t have come under the rule of an attack on a nato country is an attack on all of nato.
Stockpiled for invasion handy to have for a pandemic

 

[Lightning]

No quite right. Finland was never a member of nato and was used as a buffer between nato in the west and the soviets in the east. So Finland have stockpiled in case of invasion or war. Not being part of nato they wouldn’t have come under the rule of an attack on a nato country is an attack on all of nato.
Stockpiled for invasion handy to have for a pandemic

That’s interesting. Sweden are not members either apparently, and are not so well prepared according to the article.
There is lots of military activity in the arctic region, which I was not expecting.

 

[Jay gas]

That’s interesting. Sweden are not members either apparently, and are not so well prepared according to the article.
There is lots of military activity in the arctic region, which I was not expecting.

That’s right Sweden are not members of nato but are involved with nato through the partnership of peace which started back in 1994 and that provided a platform for developing a more flexible and individualised relationship.
They also don’t have a really large border between themselves and Russia unlike Finland which could be a real problem for the Finns if the soviets had decided to roll on in like they did many years ago.

 

[Lightning]

That’s right Sweden are not members of nato but are involved with nato through the partnership of peace which started back in 1994 and that provided a platform for developing a more flexible and individualised relationship.
They also don’t have a really large border between themselves and Russia unlike Finland which could be a real problem for the Finns if the soviets had decided to roll on in like they did many years ago.

According to Wiki.

Finland has also participated in NATO's Partnership for Peace cooperation since 1994.

In Norway they they are still prepared for another winter war. They also still have conscription. In the arctic they appeared to have a large military presence, there were convoys of military vehicles. Apparently they do not keep the stockpiles of medical equipment that Finland do though.

 

[Jay gas]

According to Wiki.

Finland has also participated in NATO's Partnership for Peace cooperation since 1994.

In Norway they they are still prepared for another winter war. They also still have conscription. In the arctic they appeared to have a large military presence, there were convoys of military vehicles. Apparently they do not keep the stockpiles of medical equipment that Finland do though.

It certainly changed for Finland after the fall of the Soviet Union
Norway need to protect their natural resources, it’s not to far from Russia and they are also a big player in oil and gas so you can understand why they have a large military presence

 

[Lightning]

It certainly changed for Finland after the fall of the Soviet Union
Norway need to protect their natural resources, it’s not to far from Russia and they are also a big player in oil and gas so you can understand why they have a large military presence

My GPS took to me to the entrance of a military airport, so I did a u-turn entered a new destination and left. A couple of soldiers came and found me and asked to check the photos on my phone. They said it was suspicious behaviour. They are taking the threat seriously. Being a soldier in the arctic must be no fun at all.

 

[Amarillo]

That’s interesting. Sweden are not members either apparently, and are not so well prepared according to the article.
There is lots of military activity in the arctic region, which I was not expecting.

I think that at the time you were up there, there had been planned large scale joint military manoeuvres with the US. The US withdrew because of Coronavirus.

Norway cancels military exercise, Pentagon cuts troops for Europe war games - Euractiv

A major military exercise in Europe has been cancelled over coronavirus concerns as a "precautionary measure" on Wednesday (11 March), while Washington is considering reduced US involvement in another exercise amid the spread of the coronavirus outbreak.

www.euractiv.com

 

[Lightning]

I think that at the time you were up there, there had been planned large scale joint military manoeuvres with the US. The US withdrew because of Coronavirus.

Norway cancels military exercise, Pentagon cuts troops for Europe war games - Euractiv

A major military exercise in Europe has been cancelled over coronavirus concerns as a "precautionary measure" on Wednesday (11 March), while Washington is considering reduced US involvement in another exercise amid the spread of the coronavirus outbreak.

www.euractiv.com

That would explain it.

 

[Jay gas]

That would explain it.

Agree. Nato puts poking the bear on hold so to speak

 

[Mickyb123]

Finland was the front line hence the stockpiling.
Having a kick at military spending is interesting though, it equates to around 2% of GDP but as seems to be very interesting on this forum, it goes away very quickly from the points raised.
Mine was simple, you can’t predict everything, you cannot stockpile for every eventuality, you plan for what you think might happen.

in Finland the treat of chemical conflict was actually very high during the Cold War, hence stockpiling that sort of equipment.

In the UK there was a different view, had the govt said we are going to spend 10s of millions stockpiling ventilators, by the way that means this year we can’t by MRI scanners or incubators, or provide police with funding they need the public would have been up in arms.
You can only plan for what you think is possibly going to happen within financial limits at the time.
In hindsight they will probably now hold greater stocks of that type of equipment. Then will be criticised for being short of the other type of equipment that might be needed in the next incident, because chances are it will be different.

 

[Scoobz1]

Finland was the front line hence the stockpiling.
Having a kick at military spending is interesting though, it equates to around 2% of GDP but as seems to be very interesting on this forum, it goes away very quickly from the points raised.
Mine was simple, you can’t predict everything, you cannot stockpile for every eventuality, you plan for what you think might happen.

in Finland the treat of chemical conflict was actually very high during the Cold War, hence stockpiling that sort of equipment.

In the UK there was a different view, had the govt said we are going to spend 10s of millions stockpiling ventilators, by the way that means this year we can’t by MRI scanners or incubators, or provide police with funding they need the public would have been up in arms.
You can only plan for what you think is possibly going to happen within financial limits at the time.
In hindsight they will probably now hold greater stocks of that type of equipment. Then will be criticised for being short of the other type of equipment that might be needed in the next incident, because chances are it will be different.
[/QUOTE

"You can only plan for what you think is possibly going to happen"

Very poor planning then only 5 years old

 

[RodCouncil]

The point is you don’t wait for the point when you need all this hardware, you act fast and shut the thing down straight away, testing a big part of this.

 

[Amarillo]

The point is you don’t wait for the point when you need all this hardware, you act fast and shut the thing down straight away, testing a big part of this.

Unless you want to build up herd immunity by sacrificing 10,000+ lives including innocent doctors, nurses and other hospital staff...

...And then pass the blame to innocent dog walkers on a remote Peak District cliff edge and a seemingly clueless family off on a Torbay fishing jaunt.

 

[docbob1]

Are you serious! just see below from WHO's own literature.
Before deriding someones contribution to a very serious situation I would do some research.

I have put in bold those "contributors" who are drug companies!!!!!

table d1.2: WHO’s top 20 private (non-state) voluntary contributors 2015 (in US$)




Contributor
Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation GAVI Alliance
National Philanthropic Trust Rotary International

UN Development Programme
European Commission
UN Central Emergency Response Fund
UN Population Fund
UN Fund for International Partnerships
African Development Bank Group
Joint UN Programme on HIV/AIDS
UNITAID – International Drug Purchase Facility UN O ce for Project Services
Bloomberg Family Foundation
Wellcome Trust
GlaxoSmithKline
Novartis
Carter Center
UN Children’s Fund
Sano Pasteur

Source: WHO (2016d, p. 25)



Voluntary, contributions speci ed

181,820,644 126,421,673 86,252,168 56,302,924 46,746,622 45,637,006 42,219,954 30,723,860 19,276,440 19,105,011 17,936,172 14,923,517 9,979,445 8,424,000 7,314,109 7,769,202 6,992,742 6,500,000 6,337,126 6,158,152



Other voluntary contributionsa

3,451,881

705,687

94,496



Total revenue

185,272,525 126,421,673 86,252,168 56,302,924 47,221,524 45,637,006 42,219,954 30,723,860 19,982,127 19,105,011 17,936,172 14,923,517 9,979,445 8,424,000 7,408,605 7,769,202 6,992,742 6,500,000 6,337,126 6,158,152

SOURCE!!!!! see below, themselves



Source: WHO (2016d, p. 25)

 

[docbob1]

THe above was for Velma's dad who posted yesterday that pharmaceutical companies are not allowed to contribute to WHO! for some unknown reason my reply has just landed 3 pages later

 

[Mickyb123]

You still have the problem of convincing the tax payer at that time that someone’s prediction is worth spending the money at that time. Things like this are always mostly re active not pro active.
The threat of nuclear proliferation has died down, defence and planning for that has therefore been reduced, does not mean it will never happen.
govts around the world make choices on priorities, you cannot stockpile everything for every eventuality. You surge as required.

 

[blondebier]

Another industry that won't be the same after lockdown:

Coronavirus: What's happening to the beer left in pubs?

Millions of pints of ale and lager could be lost if pub closures last into the summer.

www.bbc.co.uk

It's a tragedy that a load of the smaller players are unlikely to survive for long.

Our local has been selling takeaway beers and so far the local community has been really supportive.

I think it'll be another case of use it or lose it.

 

[Velma's Dad]

THe above was for Velma's dad who posted yesterday that pharmaceutical companies are not allowed to contribute to WHO! for some unknown reason my reply has just landed 3 pages later

Yes you are correct and I apologise, WHO's funding does now indeed include some money from pharma companies. It used to be the case that such funding was not allowed at all but I see that has slipped in the past decade.

I'm sure no one is naive enough to think that corporations make such donations without them judging that there is a business case for doing so. But, those big pharma donations are only about 2% of WHO's total budget.

The other source of funding that you highlight in the table is the Gates Foundation. That does certainly give very large grants to WHO, comprising about 15% or more of WHO's total funding. I'm unclear what your specific objection is to that.

 

[docbob1]

Hi velma's dad, do you believe the proportionate funding in THEIR accounts, I do not, they just can't deny they don't receive it, so put in a tame amount, please see my contribution on 2010 Tamiflu, $48Billion wasted funding from stretched world health budgets (half a billion from UK alone), WHO commitee that recommended stockpiling this useless anti-viral, failed to disclose they received PERSONAL payments from said companies. I can send many references regarding this.
You seem to be one of the few interested in fact and the truth, no YAWNS, Bo=====cks etc from the sheeple.
Look clearly at the situation, how many people do you know who are ill? A colleague has had medical training in COVID/received PPE/etc in the West Midlands, the epicentre of the Armageddon virus apparently, but is still waiting for the first case! so on general wards at present. Must be lock down is working? I think not looking at the previous curves I have posted of this rate of viral infectivity
21 anti-viral agents, none effective in COVID or SIMILAR, no vaccine will be viable, so what are we doing? Flattenening the curve so NHS can cope. In India ther are 1300,000,000 people 75% have no access to healthcare (Indian Government figures 2016) 1% death rate from COVID (better than original 3.6%) and you will look at 11.3 million dead. I will hold my breath on this to see if it is true (try and do social distancing in Calcutta Mubai etc).
Last post from me, much a relief to the ignorant who deserve what they will get.

While everyone is queueing up to have their nasal swab or whatever, sent to an unknown 3rd party 'lab' for Corona (the test being used unvalidated, poor specificity/sensitivity (qv) the results of which elude me in managing this situation, but what do I know about epidemiology (study of diseases in populations which I took training in)!
Just pass on your DNA and make sure you get your Address, Date of birth and name correct. It makes microchipping the population in the future un-necessary, less invasive and foolproof, once given cannot be removed unlike a microchip.

 

[GrannyJen]

Hi velma's dad, do you believe the proportionate funding in THEIR accounts, I do not, they just can't deny they don't receive it, so put in a tame amount, please see my contribution on 2010 Tamiflu, $48Billion wasted funding from stretched world health budgets (half a billion from UK alone), WHO commitee that recommended stockpiling this useless anti-viral, failed to disclose they received PERSONAL payments from said companies. I can send many references regarding this.
You seem to be one of the few interested in fact and the truth, no YAWNS, Bo=====cks etc from the sheeple.
Look clearly at the situation, how many people do you know who are ill? A colleague has had medical training in COVID/received PPE/etc in the West Midlands, the epicentre of the Armageddon virus apparently, but is still waiting for the first case! so on general wards at present. Must be lock down is working? I think not looking at the previous curves I have posted of this rate of viral infectivity
21 anti-viral agents, none effective in COVID or SIMILAR, no vaccine will be viable, so what are we doing? Flattenening the curve so NHS can cope. In India ther are 1300,000,000 people 75% have no access to healthcare (Indian Government figures 2016) 1% death rate from COVID (better than original 3.6%) and you will look at 11.3 million dead. I will hold my breath on this to see if it is true (try and do social distancing in Calcutta Mubai etc).
Last post from me, much a relief to the ignorant who deserve what they will get.

While everyone is queueing up to have their nasal swab or whatever, sent to an unknown 3rd party 'lab' for Corona (the test being used unvalidated, poor specificity/sensitivity (qv) the results of which elude me in managing this situation, but what do I know about epidemiology (study of diseases in populations which I took training in)!
Just pass on your DNA and make sure you get your Address, Date of birth and name correct. It makes microchipping the population in the future un-necessary, less invasive and foolproof, once given cannot be removed unlike a microchip.

Fascinating.

 

[westfalia]

You seem to be one of the few interested in fact and the truth, no YAWNS, Bo=====cks etc from the sheeple.

Last post from me, much a relief to the ignorant who deserve what they will get.

Errrm, I have an open mind on most things and i don't mind at all reading
other peoples views, yours included.