Coronavirus Impact

[jts46]

Has anybody watched this?

 

[CaliBear]

BBC News - Coronavirus: 'Oldest' patient discharged from Birmingham hospital https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-52296196

If I get to the age of 106, am still with it and manage to survive a terrible virus I think I will be very lucky.
Good to hear to hear some good news that people in the vulnerable groups can get through this virus.

 

[Amarillo]

Shopping for food Tom, chickens equals eggs equals food, no?

I think that is a tenuous link.

The full text of the automatic excuse to leave home for shopping is here:

to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for vulnerable persons and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household, or the household of a vulnerable person, or to obtain money, including from any business listed in Part 3 of Schedule 2;​

It does include a mention of pets, but only in relation to their basic necessities, not actually acquiring pets.

Perhaps I would get away with it under the "to move house", automatic excuse. From one hen house to another, the "reasonably necessary" being a danger of hen pecking.

I'll take all the documentation with me, including the farmer's instructions for contact free collection, and if stopped I have something to show for my "reasonable excuse". If that doesn't work, I'll advise plod that if they arrest me they will have to look after Ben and Jack.

 

[Joker 1299]

I think that is a tenuous link.

The full text of the automatic excuse to leave home for shopping is here:

to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for vulnerable persons and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household, or the household of a vulnerable person, or to obtain money, including from any business listed in Part 3 of Schedule 2;​

It does include a mention of pets, but only in relation to their basic necessities, not actually acquiring pets.

Perhaps I would get away with it under the "to move house", automatic excuse. From one hen house to another, the "reasonably necessary" being a danger of hen pecking.

I'll take all the documentation with me, including the farmer's instructions for contact free collection, and if stopped I have something to show for my "reasonable excuse". If that doesn't work, I'll advise plod that if they arrest me they will have to look after Ben and Jack.

My view is that what you are doing is in the spirit of lockdown. Self sufficiency is surely better than going out and shopping for eggs day in, day out. But, then I’m not a magistrate.

 

[larrylamb]

Bala lake car park

View attachment 56423

Ive just seen on Twitter, local Welsh Police are investigating this as the vehicle and trailers were stolen from the local industrial estate. Slightly misplaced good intentions.

 

[docbob1]

Probably too simplistic. Again, I am talking about a face mask ‘worn by an infected person’. In your clip Dr Van Tam said that he and the expert agreed that there is no evidence that ‘general wearing of facemarks by the public who are well affects the spread of the disease’.

It might be the case that, all other things being equal and if used properly, face masks worn by infected people would reduce infection rates. However there is probably a concern that face masks might be counter productive if they adversely affect people’s behaviour, such as compromising social distancing. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see, which is essentially what I think Sir Patrick Vallance said in the press conference a few days ago.

Meanwhile, looking at the other extreme, Shinzo Abe has announced that every household in Japan will receive two face masks. There is some confusion over how two face masks might be of use:
View attachment 57554

Love the japanese approach to this, seems a practical way to off load unwanted relatives with a quota of masks.
You clearly have a scientific approach to capture velocity/permeation etc suggesting that like me, you have MIOSH or similar. The problem is that the term 'infected people' encompasses two groups, those that are ill with virus, surely to be too ill to be up and about and need it or the carrier group who may have this condition for months /several years. Are they supposed to go around with masks on all this time!
Bottom line, no vaccine (nor will ther ever be), current catastrophic policy re financial,educational,social and all its ramifications to slow the death rate in the elderly/at risk groups so NHS can cope, knowing full well we have to contact this virus in due course due to lack of vaccine/anti-virals (glad to see no-one trying to throw the 21 anti-virals into the equation as they have no proven efficacy). How do respiratory low level PPE work in this scenario after the initial attempt to 'flatten the curve' in addition to using social distancing. Do we/carriers wear these for the next few years until next mutation? Then start all over again, by which time, bancrupt as a country and NHS needing £3 billion per week at current rates will be well up the swanny financially!
Police state seems to be taking on a momentum. I live on Welsh borders, never see a police car from one week to the next, currently police helicopters flying overhead at least 1-2 times a day mainly down A44 route.

 

[Joker 1299]

Love the japanese approach to this, seems a practical way to off load unwanted relatives with a quota of masks.
You clearly have a scientific approach to capture velocity/permeation etc suggesting that like me, you have MIOSH or similar. The problem is that the term 'infected people' encompasses two groups, those that are ill with virus, surely to be too ill to be up and about and need it or the carrier group who may have this condition for months /several years. Are they supposed to go around with masks on all this time!
Bottom line, no vaccine (nor will ther ever be), current catastrophic policy re financial,educational,social and all its ramifications to slow the death rate in the elderly/at risk groups so NHS can cope, knowing full well we have to contact this virus in due course due to lack of vaccine/anti-virals (glad to see no-one trying to throw the 21 anti-virals into the equation as they have no proven efficacy). How do respiratory low level PPE work in this scenario after the initial attempt to 'flatten the curve' in addition to using social distancing. Do we/carriers wear these for the next few years until next mutation? Then start all over again, by which time, bancrupt as a country and NHS needing £3 billion per week at current rates will be well up the swanny financially!
Police state seems to be taking on a momentum. I live on Welsh borders, never see a police car from one week to the next, currently police helicopters flying overhead at least 1-2 times a day mainly down A44 route.

Ok, let’s all give up now, shall we?

 

[docbob1]

View attachment 57541
ONS graph released yesterday adds to this.

Perhaps these statistics should be deducted fro the Covid deaths
2018-19, the latest year for which data is available, 400 people died whilst on the active transplant waiting list. A further 780 were removed from the list that year, which in most cases would have been as a result of deteriorating health and they would have died shortly afterwards
We have suspended transplant surgery due to lack of ITU beds/fear of Covid infection I assume, although I can't find a definitive answer from various trusts as some say still 20% availablity (surely not in this current crisis needing field hospitals for the dying on ventilators)
This group are relatively young can withstand a major major surgical proceedure and go on for many years in a productive good quality life. In a flu epidemic do we condem these people and suspend transplants, NO. The above appalling number occur whilst transplant surgery IS available, what will it be now? Add that into the equation

 

[Mickyb123]

If it’s a new chicken coop seems obvious to me you are not self sufficien.
why can’t the chickens wait for a few more weeks? Why does it have to be now? Might be contact free with the farmer, but what happens if you have an incident on the mway, you going to be contactless with the breakdown truck. God forbid you have an accident on the 80 mile journey, what about the coppers that then have to deal with you, then the other services you come into contact with.
So the basic question is, why are you taking a non essential journey?

 

[Amarillo]

Police state seems to be taking on a momentum. I live on Welsh borders, never see a police car from one week to the next, currently police helicopters flying overhead at least 1-2 times a day mainly down A44 route.

Some police forces are looking more and more like county or region border forces. Chief constables have misunderstood social distancing regulations to mean “keep outsiders out”. Local vigilante’s have rebranded walkers as idiots. Remote areas of the countryside are fiercely protected to prevent them becoming epicentres of viral exchange. It’s all very odd.

 

[Amarillo]

My view is that what you are doing is in the spirit of lockdown. Self sufficiency is surely better than going out and shopping for eggs day in, day out. But, then I’m not a magistrate.

I feel comfortable with it. But there is much evidence of local police miscomprehending the regulations.

Plus I don’t know what happens if stopped and I disagree with the judgement of the police. Do I just take my £60 ticket, then continue on my way regardless. Or do the police have the authority to make their judgement and prevent what I believe is a lawful activity in an extra judicial manner?

Or does the £60 fine then escalate to £120 if I refuse to accept the police’s interpretation of the regulations, then £240, then £480, then £960 (max) before I can continue with my (lawful) business?

 

[Jay gas]

Love the japanese approach to this, seems a practical way to off load unwanted relatives with a quota of masks.
You clearly have a scientific approach to capture velocity/permeation etc suggesting that like me, you have MIOSH or similar. The problem is that the term 'infected people' encompasses two groups, those that are ill with virus, surely to be too ill to be up and about and need it or the carrier group who may have this condition for months /several years. Are they supposed to go around with masks on all this time!
Bottom line, no vaccine (nor will ther ever be), current catastrophic policy re financial,educational,social and all its ramifications to slow the death rate in the elderly/at risk groups so NHS can cope, knowing full well we have to contact this virus in due course due to lack of vaccine/anti-virals (glad to see no-one trying to throw the 21 anti-virals into the equation as they have no proven efficacy). How do respiratory low level PPE work in this scenario after the initial attempt to 'flatten the curve' in addition to using social distancing. Do we/carriers wear these for the next few years until next mutation? Then start all over again, by which time, bancrupt as a country and NHS needing £3 billion per week at current rates will be well up the swanny financially!
Police state seems to be taking on a momentum. I live on Welsh borders, never see a police car from one week to the next, currently police helicopters flying overhead at least 1-2 times a day mainly down A44 route.

So if there’s going to be no vaccine and reports are coming out that some people are being reinfected with the virus in Asia it would add up that we’re all of to hell in a handcart because with that happening there’s nothing to stop this virus

 

[Amarillo]

If it’s a new chicken coop seems obvious to me you are not self sufficien.
why can’t the chickens wait for a few more weeks? Why does it have to be now? Might be contact free with the farmer, but what happens if you have an incident on the mway, you going to be contactless with the breakdown truck. God forbid you have an accident on the 80 mile journey, what about the coppers that then have to deal with you, then the other services you come into contact with.
So the basic question is, why are you taking a non essential journey?

If you look at the legislation, it is trips away from the home that are “without reasonable excuse” that are banned. The ban on “non essential” trips is fake news perpetuated by errant police officers.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020

These Regulations require the closure of businesses selling food or drink for consumption on the premises, and businesses listed in Part 2 of Schedule 2, to protect against the risks to public health arising from coronavirus, except for limited permitted uses. Restrictions are imposed on...

www.legislation.gov.uk

I have a “reasonable excuse” to leave the home. To buy hens from a farm, and farms are permitted to trade.

The “what if” arguments about travel don’t really stand up to scrutiny. You can come up with just as many “what if” scenarios about accidents in the home.

I don’t know how much you know about shopping for food in London at the moment. First of all, shops are not very welcoming places for parents with young children. Queues to enter larger supermarkets are about 90 minutes. I haven’t been able to find eggs in smaller shops where I can leave my boys in the car. Since the beginning of last month we have had four Sainsbury’s deliveries (we get priority slots once a week as Clare works for the NHS). Only once have eggs been on the delivery - three weeks ago, reduced from 18 to 6.

 

[Joker 1299]

I feel comfortable with it. But there is much evidence of local police miscomprehending the regulations.

Plus I don’t know what happens if stopped and I disagree with the judgement of the police. Do I just take my £60 ticket, then continue on my way regardless. Or do the police have the authority to make their judgement and prevent what I believe is a lawful activity in an extra judicial manner?

Or does the £60 fine then escalate to £120 if I refuse to accept the police’s interpretation of the regulations, then £240, then £480, then £960 (max) before I can continue with my (lawful) business?

Go for it. Let us know how you get on. Good luck!

 

[T6 CFO]

I feel comfortable with it. But there is much evidence of local police miscomprehending the regulations.

Plus I don’t know what happens if stopped and I disagree with the judgement of the police. Do I just take my £60 ticket, then continue on my way regardless. Or do the police have the authority to make their judgement and prevent what I believe is a lawful activity in an extra judicial manner?

Or does the £60 fine then escalate to £120 if I refuse to accept the police’s interpretation of the regulations, then £240, then £480, then £960 (max) before I can continue with my (lawful) business?

Is this going to be a solo effort or a family outing ?


Mike

 

[Amarillo]

Is this going to be a solo effort or a family outing ?

A family outing. Why?

 

[andyinluton]

Whilst I think going to buy extremely fresh chicken is acceptable, I think you are pushing your luck with the distance. Having more than one person in the car / van would increase your chances of getting pulled enormously.

I did a 30 mile round trip to collect vegetable plants, seeds and some raised planters at the weekend & wasn’t entirely comfortable doing that - it was on behalf of an isolating 80 year old not myself & it will be his only pleasure for the next few months.


Having done some fairly long trips for work over the last couple of weeks I have seen roadblocks on motorways & been stopped a couple of times on lesser roads. It appears cars get stopped a lot more than vans & anything with more than one person in it is a prime target.

 

[Amarillo]

Whilst I think going to buy extremely fresh chicken is acceptable, I think you are pushing your luck with the distance. Having more than one person in the car / van would increase your chances of getting pulled enormously.

I did a 30 mile round trip to collect vegetable plants, seeds and some raised planters at the weekend & wasn’t entirely comfortable doing that - it was on behalf of an isolating 80 year old not myself & it will be his only pleasure for the next few months.


Having done some fairly long trips for work over the last couple of weeks I have seen roadblocks on motorways & been stopped a couple of times on lesser roads. It appears cars get stopped a lot more than vans & anything with more than one person in it is a prime target.

I'll be in the Beach, Clare drives the Skoda to work. I have little choice but to take the boys; Clare can't take them to work with her at Guy's and St Thomas's and I can't leave them with octogenarian grandparents, and I certainly can't leave them home alone. With no one in the front and tinted windows, any police may not even notice the boys in the back. However, bright yellow and with the flags down the side, I can't even hope that my van will be mistaken for a tradesman's van.

I think my only problem might be an over-zealous police officer, but I'll bring my email communication from the farmer with me.

Thank you for your order. Total due is £xx​

​

(I will have sold out of the Suffolk Blacktails by the time I get to you order, so have put you down for 3 x Mendlesham Blues and 3 x Fenning Whites (as well as your pellets and vinegar) - I hope this is ok)​

​

Your collection day/time is 2.30pm Friday 17th April.​

​

Please be here at this exact time, not early or late, (for everyone's safety).​

​

Place your boxes/carriers on the table in front of the inner gate by the white van and your payment in the clear tub (cash in an envelope please) and then stand well back. (please only have one person get out of the car)​

​

We will then put your birds in your boxes and leave them on the table along with any products/change required.​

​

Once we have placed everything on the table and you have had an indication from us, please then load up your car and exit our drive.​

​

We hope that these procedures will keep everyone safe and would ask that you follow them carefully.​

​

If you would rather make payment by BACS this would need to be made at least 24 hours before your collection time.​

​

[bank details deleted]​

​

Thank you for your order and we look forward to seeing you on Friday.​

​

If you could please acknowledge receipt of this email that would be helpful.​

 

[blondebier]

This was the most balanced article I've seen the BBC publish to date:

Coronavirus: How to understand the death toll

The rising number of coronavirus deaths is distressing. But what are the figures actually telling us?

www.bbc.com

He covers the unpopular thinking that the lockdown itself "could" be costing lives.

I wonder what the numbers will look like afterwards for "avoidable deaths" that could have been prevented if we'd prioritised those patients and treated them?

I suspect it'll be a lot higher than those that had an early death due to COVID-19.

 

[Amarillo]

This was the most balanced article I've seen the BBC publish to date:

Coronavirus: How to understand the death toll

The rising number of coronavirus deaths is distressing. But what are the figures actually telling us?

www.bbc.com

He covers the unpopular thinking that the lockdown itself "could" be costing lives.

I wonder what the numbers will look like afterwards for "avoidable deaths" that could have been prevented if we'd prioritised those patients and treated them?

I suspect it'll be a lot higher than those that had an early death due to COVID-19.

The key figure I took away from that report is the estimated 490,000 lives, 0.75% of the British population, saved by having the lockdown. That figure dwarfs the estimated 20,000 lives that will be lost during this pandemic.

 

[Scoobz1]

Ive just seen on Twitter, local Welsh Police are investigating this as the vehicle and trailers were stolen from the local industrial estate. Slightly misplaced good intentions.

Have you seen the state of them - you would struggle to give them away ! Plus if you were the owner of them and did put them there or allow them to be driven there you are hardly going to own up to it as the cars and the trailers are not roadworthy !

 

[Scoobz1]

I'll be in the Beach, Clare drives the Skoda to work. I have little choice but to take the boys; Clare can't take them to work with her at Guy's and St Thomas's and I can't leave them with octogenarian grandparents, and I certainly can't leave them home alone. With no one in the front and tinted windows, any police may not even notice the boys in the back. However, bright yellow and with the flags down the side, I can't even hope that my van will be mistaken for a tradesman's van.

I think my only problem might be an over-zealous police officer, but I'll bring my email communication from the farmer with me.

Thank you for your order. Total due is £xx​

​

(I will have sold out of the Suffolk Blacktails by the time I get to you order, so have put you down for 3 x Mendlesham Blues and 3 x Fenning Whites (as well as your pellets and vinegar) - I hope this is ok)​

​

Your collection day/time is 2.30pm Friday 17th April.​

​

Please be here at this exact time, not early or late, (for everyone's safety).​

​

Place your boxes/carriers on the table in front of the inner gate by the white van and your payment in the clear tub (cash in an envelope please) and then stand well back. (please only have one person get out of the car)​

​

We will then put your birds in your boxes and leave them on the table along with any products/change required.​

​

Once we have placed everything on the table and you have had an indication from us, please then load up your car and exit our drive.​

​

We hope that these procedures will keep everyone safe and would ask that you follow them carefully.​

​

If you would rather make payment by BACS this would need to be made at least 24 hours before your collection time.​

​

[bank details deleted]​

​

Thank you for your order and we look forward to seeing you on Friday.​

​

If you could please acknowledge receipt of this email that would be helpful.​

If you are travelling more than a few miles for this then you really deserve to get done in my opinion. Why - is it essential you have eggs ? (probably not); can you get them in a nearby supermarket (yes - nothing to stop your partner looking after the boys whilst you do the shop or them accompanying you (though the last option is best avoided and probably worth forgoing the eggs). You always seem to be desperate to find an excuse to go to some place other than where you live and whilst where you live might not be ideal it is probably a lot better than where a lot of other people live.

 

[Amarillo]

If you are travelling more than a few miles for this then you really deserve to get done in my opinion. Why - is it essential you have eggs ? (probably not);

Clare tried again to get eggs this morning, getting into Sainsbury’s before opening time with her NHS ID. Surprise! Surprise! None available.

Anyway - as I’ve said before, all but “essential travel” being banned is fake news. The bar for travel is “reasonable excuse”. Is collecting point on lay hens for a reliable source of fresh eggs during a period of egg shortage a “reasonable excuse”? Yes, it is.

Clearly there are people who think it isn’t, and the risk I’m taking is running into an over zealous policeman. So I’ll take my paperwork, a copy of the regulations and a copy of the common sense advice guide produced for the police to follow.

Return to the comments by Matt Hancock on Question Time. The reason for the lockdown is to prevent people coming into contact with other people outside their household. The procedure the farmer has put in place to prevent contact when collecting the hens mean there is no possibility of coming into contact with anyone. It’s all fine.

 

[willwander]

Should I wear a mask to stop coronavirus?

The BBC's Laura Foster looks at the science about when and where we should wear face masks.

www.bbc.co.uk

Mask debate continues.

More and more countries including the US and German now insisting everyone should wear a mask in public.

I really don’t get the video above, it says we shouldn’t wear masks because they offer no benefits, and they should be reserved for healthcare workers and carers. That seems like a blatant contradiction.

 

[Joker 1299]

Clare tried again to get eggs this morning, getting into Sainsbury’s before opening time with her NHS ID. Surprise! Surprise! None available.

Anyway - as I’ve said before, all but “essential travel” being banned is fake news. The bar for travel is “reasonable excuse”. Is collecting point on lay hens for a reliable source of fresh eggs during a period of egg shortage a “reasonable excuse”? Yes, it is.

Clearly there are people who think it isn’t, and the risk I’m taking is running into an over zealous policeman. So I’ll take my paperwork, a copy of the regulations and a copy of the common sense advice guide produced for the police to follow.

Return to the comments by Matt Hancock on Question Time. The reason for the lockdown is to prevent people coming into contact with other people outside their household. The procedure the farmer has put in place to prevent contact when collecting the hens mean there is no possibility of coming into contact with anyone. It’s all fine.

What is reasonable comes back to the man on the Clapham omnibus (yes, him again)