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Home Electricity & Costs - what are you doing?

The Tall Luthier

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Using electricity sensibly - most of our lighting is low energy bulbs, and we switch off lights when not required.
Am now running my CH throughout day - wife is extremely susceptible to the cold, and we are in our mid-eighties.
Ninja air fryer generally replaces conventional oven - I can see new-builds eventually not having conventional ovens.
Government has to act to make UK as independent as possible for our energy needs - heavy subsidisation is not sustainable, but neither is the eventual drain ing of savings for ordinary folk.
Net zero aims need to be shelved for the immediate future. Global warming has probably been hiked up artificially, and many large nations are still using fossil fuels for the foreseeable future.
Global warming has arisen over many decades, and reversal will need a similar time scale.
There is no point in trying a short term ‘qick-fix’, where the majority of ordinary folk will be occupying a planet on which they cannot afford to live.
Activists are accusing governments of doing nothing, but the reality is that they [governments] do not know where to start without wrecking their economies and causing social disorder.
The tricky thing with decades is that in 55 years the world population will have doubled. Based on population growth of 1.01% per year

People are the cause of climate change.
I don’t disagree with your statements and actually I’m a bit of a fatalist on the subject.

Human life is unsustainable on our planet, perhaps we should just enjoy ourselves.
 
Velma's Dad

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The tricky thing with decades is that in 55 years the world population will have doubled. Based on population growth of 1.01% per year.
Sorry but that's Malthusian nonsense. There is broad consensus among demographers that the world population will top out at around 10.5 bn towards the end of the century (it recently reached 8 bn) and then begin to fall.

See (eg): https://reliefweb.int/report/world/...t projections by the,at that level until 2100.

The majority of countries now have fertility rates of lower than 2.1 (which is the replacement rate), so population growth there only continues for the time being due to increasing life expectancy.
 
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Sorry but that's Malthusian nonsense. There is broad consensus among demographers that the world population will top out at around 10.5 bn towards the end of the century (it recently reached 8 bn) and then begin to fall.

See (eg): https://reliefweb.int/report/world/world-population-reach-8-billion-15-november-2022-enarzh#:~:text=The latest projections by the,at that level until 2100.

The majority of countries now have fertility rates of lower than 2.1 (which is the replacement rate), so population growth there only continues for the time being due to increasing life expectancy.
Population density world map.

Each spike represents the population in an area 2km by 2km.

C994CA9B-C1FE-41C8-B6B0-7E25BC165319.png
 
The Tall Luthier

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Thanks for those links. V interesting.

Saddening to see that the percentage of old people is due to rise. Given that they are more prone to vote in a way that lessens their offspring chances if economic success nimbyism etc we ultimately stiffed anyways.
Sorry but that's Malthusian nonsense. There is broad consensus among demographers that the world population will top out at around 10.5 bn towards the end of the century (it recently reached 8 bn) and then begin to fall.

See (eg): https://reliefweb.int/report/world/world-population-reach-8-billion-15-november-2022-enarzh#:~:text=The latest projections by the,at that level until 2100.

The majority of countries now have fertility rates of lower than 2.1 (which is the replacement rate), so population growth there only continues for the time being due to increasing life expectancy.
 
GrannyJen

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Thanks for those links. V interesting.

Saddening to see that the percentage of old people is due to rise. Given that they are more prone to vote in a way that lessens their offspring chances if economic success nimbyism etc we ultimately stiffed anyways.

There is a balance somewhere though.

In the words of Winston Churchill .. "the world will be a much more dangerous place when we have leaders with no experience of the horrors of war"....

In probably the most dangerous time in all of human history two leaders who had first hand memories of war found their way to have dialogue when all around them seemed to be wanting war.

40 years later we had the opposite, when two leaders with no first hand knowledge of war decided to set fire to the Middle East on the sort of pretexts that would have had Kruschev and Kennedy turning in their graves.

Hopefully With age comes wisdom and at a time when memories of 20th century carnage are becoming distant wise heads will prevail before we have a cull on the world population that would make the Black Death seem no more malevolent than a snotty nose,
 
sidepod

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The human race needs another Black Death.
 
The Tall Luthier

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Hopefully With age comes wisdom and at a time when memories of 20th century carnage are becoming distant wise heads will prevail before we have a cull on the world population that would make the Black Death seem no more malevolent than a snotty nose,
Point taken in world leaders Jen.
The problem I have is that idea of with age comes wisdom. In my experience this is a lie perpetrated by the old to make them seem more relevant in society. I’m52
In my village, a mainly white working class one, the old people I know can be characterised more by fear that wisdom.
They fear:
That housing project in the next field
The onshore wind farm
The chicken factory
The new road
The hs2 railway
Progress
Young people
Society being so much worse than it was when they were young.
IMMIGRANTS
other countries.
Socialism in any form
People of colour

They have plenty of time on their hands to campaign against any of the above.

These are all nearly natural things to have concerns about, however old burgers view, and the media know just how to press their ‘woke’ alert buttons.
So why is this so bad? Well all of the things on that list promote growth in our country, jobs, livelihoods and opportunities for young people. It could easily be argued that the old demographic actively vote against the interests of their offspring when voting for their own advantages.
 
sidepod

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Isn’t growth just another word for greed?
Where does it stop? What’s wrong with enough or that’s all we need.
What happens when there is literally no more countryside left, no space to build any more roads/houses or import and more people. What then? Where does growth come from?
Simple fact is there are too many people.

Those oldies you talk about are just missing simpler times, less complicated where people were more humble and caring, less me me me and more helpful. I know which I’d rather have.
 
GrannyJen

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Point taken in world leaders Jen.
The problem I have is that idea of with age comes wisdom. In my experience this is a lie perpetrated by the old to make them seem more relevant in society. I’m52
In my village, a mainly white working class one, the old people I know can be characterised more by fear that wisdom.
They fear:
That housing project in the next field
The onshore wind farm
The chicken factory
The new road
The hs2 railway
Progress
Young people
Society being so much worse than it was when they were young.
IMMIGRANTS
other countries.
Socialism in any form
People of colour

They have plenty of time on their hands to campaign against any of the above.

These are all nearly natural things to have concerns about, however old burgers view, and the media know just how to press their ‘woke’ alert buttons.
So why is this so bad? Well all of the things on that list promote growth in our country, jobs, livelihoods and opportunities for young people. It could easily be argued that the old demographic actively vote against the interests of their offspring when voting for their own advantages.

Yes, I agree. I see the above in others, and also in me and it frightens me to death. Fortunately I have a large younger family that keeps challenging me ... well, I challenge them but lose .....
 
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WelshGas

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Point taken in world leaders Jen.
The problem I have is that idea of with age comes wisdom. In my experience this is a lie perpetrated by the old to make them seem more relevant in society. I’m52
In my village, a mainly white working class one, the old people I know can be characterised more by fear that wisdom.
They fear:
That housing project in the next field
The onshore wind farm
The chicken factory
The new road
The hs2 railway
Progress
Young people
Society being so much worse than it was when they were young.
IMMIGRANTS
other countries.
Socialism in any form
People of colour

They have plenty of time on their hands to campaign against any of the above.

These are all nearly natural things to have concerns about, however old burgers view, and the media know just how to press their ‘woke’ alert buttons.
So why is this so bad? Well all of the things on that list promote growth in our country, jobs, livelihoods and opportunities for young people. It could easily be argued that the old demographic actively vote against the interests of their offspring when voting for their own advantages.
Some I agree with , others not.
A local housing development of some 500 houses was refused planning because of the local oldies pressuring the Council. Represented and passed but this time with new access road to local bypass, new bus shelters/stops enabling re-routing of local express bus route, satellite primary school on site and extension to local medical centre as well as new drainage wildlife pond, all following consultation with the "local" oldies.
 
The Tall Luthier

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Yes, I agree. I see the above in others, and also in me and it frightens me to death. Fortunately I have large younger family that keeps challenging me ... well, I challenge them but lose .....
I think it’s natural to be this way, we get into routines, minimising risks, we become more protectionist in our thinking. We change our risks ratios and confirm our brilliant thinking by having attained a stable lifestyle.

You’re very lucky to be challenged. I hope to be corrected many times as I attempt to tell the world how it really is in the world according to me!!!!
 
The Tall Luthier

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Some I agree with , others not.
A local housing development of some 500 houses was refused planning because of the local oldies pressuring the Council. Represented and passed but this time with new access road to local bypass, new bus shelters/stops enabling re-routing of local express bus route, satellite primary school on site and extension to local medical centre as well as new drainage wildlife pond, all following consultation with the "local" oldies.
Oldies can be useful. I imagine in this case that the parish council oldies were very vocal and ensured that the district council followed their own guidelines to the letter. Well done them.
A good parish council can be worth its weight in gold if it is progressive.
Our oldies opposed a windmill, the farmer was willing to share profits with the village every year if unopposed. Oldies opposed it, hee won, obviously, we don’t get a share of the profits. Windmill is a great feature. ‘Oldies’
 
A

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Yep - Our In house display packed up years ago - Gen 1 meter.
The meter part still functions and sends EDF meter reads - but no display.
EDF sent me a new one that I spent hours trying to get to talk to the meter unit - no go and eventually they admitted it wont work with the older Gen 1 units.

So will have to wait until they get around to swapping the old Gen 1 units out - which will take years.
More tech that will end up in landfill. The carbon footprint on all this tech isn't without its own concerns right?
We had a new smart meter fitted at the beginning of November. There was one fitted when we bought the house 3 years ago supplied by British Gas but Ecotricity couldn't access it.

According to the fitter, all new smart meters can be used by various suppliers which wasn't the case previously.

Alan
 
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clarinetbcn

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Oldies can be useful. I imagine in this case that the parish council oldies were very vocal and ensured that the district council followed their own guidelines to the letter. Well done them.
A good parish council can be worth its weight in gold if it is progressive.
Our oldies opposed a windmill, the farmer was willing to share profits with the village every year if unopposed. Oldies opposed it, hee won, obviously, we don’t get a share of the profits. Windmill is a great feature. ‘Oldies’
Old men in our 1880 building (a new one in the city center, most buildings are from 12th to 14th century) opposed installing an elevator, even though their wives, who were doing the shopping, were pleading for it. We finally got it installed with a 40% city subsidy, because a city-wide study showed that the money spent on hiring qualified people to carry old people living alone or with elderly partners with health emergencies down stairs was breaking the budget of the health care system. On the other hand, all ages in my building refused to install a community solar system in 2019, when there was a 60% city subsidy, so I installed my own. Obviously they now regret that decision. Waiting lists for installers are now a year or more, since the law now requires upgrading public buildings. There is huge growth of employment in this sector.
 
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The Tall Luthier

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Old men in our 1880 building opposed installing an elevator, even though their wives were pleading for it. We finally got it installed with a city subsidy, because a city-wide study showed that the money spent on hiring people to carry old people living alone or with elderly partners with health emergencies down stairs was breaking the budget of the health care system. On the other hand, all ages in my building refused to install a community solar system in 2019, when there was a 60% city subsidy, so I installed my own. Obviously they now regret that decision. Waiting lists for installers are now a year or more, since the law now requires upgrading public buildings.
Hee hee. I love the vibe of solar panels. I like especially Macron’s edict that all roofed car parks must be converted to solar over the next few years.

The only thing I haven’t seen is any statistics that suggest that solar is a carbon positive move! I’ve found nothing that tells me that the carbon cost of mining, production , transport and installation of panels is outweighed by the carbon savings compared with national grid energy.
 
GrumpyGranddad

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Point taken in world leaders Jen.
The problem I have is that idea of with age comes wisdom. In my experience this is a lie perpetrated by the old to make them seem more relevant in society. I’m52
In my village, a mainly white working class one, the old people I know can be characterised more by fear that wisdom.
They fear:
That housing project in the next field
The onshore wind farm
The chicken factory
The new road
The hs2 railway
Progress
Young people
Society being so much worse than it was when they were young.
IMMIGRANTS
other countries.
Socialism in any form
People of colour

They have plenty of time on their hands to campaign against any of the above.

These are all nearly natural things to have concerns about, however old burgers view, and the media know just how to press their ‘woke’ alert buttons.
So why is this so bad? Well all of the things on that list promote growth in our country, jobs, livelihoods and opportunities for young people. It could easily be argued that the old demographic actively vote against the interests of their offspring when voting for their own advantages.
That post made me laugh.

If you made such sweeping generalisations about any group other than old white people you might expect some serious backlash @The Tall Luthier

For the record, not all old white folk are against progress and/or growth. Not all old white people are right wing, etc, etc, etc.

Have you not noticed the many young people protesting about new initiatives? (I.e. none of the HS2 protestors living in the trees in Wendover were old). Applying your reasoning the young activists could also be categorised as being driven more by fear than wisdom? But that would be equally unfair.

BTW you’re 52 and to a 16 year old you’re already old :) :)
 
The Tall Luthier

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That post made me laugh.

If you made such sweeping generalisations about any group other than old white people you might expect some serious backlash @The Tall Luthier

For the record, not all old white folk are against progress and/or growth. Not all old white people are right wing, etc, etc, etc.

Have you not noticed the many young people protesting about new initiatives? (I.e. none of the HS2 protestors living in the trees in Wendover were old). Applying your reasoning the young activists could also be categorised as being driven more by fear than wisdom? But that would be equally unfair.

BTW you’re 52 and to a 16 year old you’re already old :) :)
Thank you for putting my own prejudices to the test. I have several
I still stand by my experiences in the village though. Most oldies, and I’m getting there too, have a number of fears in that list.

Several examples stick in my mind of people, great people, civic leaders in some cases who will talk about how Wokeism is getting out of control. A term perpetuate largely by the daily telegraph to pray on their fears. Most, not all will express fears of things that may appear on the list. There are a couple of folks who are a Damn sight more progressive than I am obviously and probably many more who are neither fearful or progressive, just quiet.

The ONS charts quite clearly how voting age is an indicator of voting intention. Young people are more likely to vote for a socialist/liberal parties, oldies for a more illiberal conservative style of government.

But the nail in the coffin for me is that my village helps to keep Michael Fabricant MP in power by voting blue 80%+. This is hardly a sign of great Wisdom in an aging community :).
 
GrumpyGranddad

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“Young people are more likely to vote for a socialist/liberal parties, oldies for a more illiberal conservative style of government.”

Has always been the way :)

“If the whole world depends on today’s youth, I can’t see the world lasting another 100 years.”
Socrates 399BC
 
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WelshGas

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Thank you for putting my own prejudices to the test. I have several
I still stand by my experiences in the village though. Most oldies, and I’m getting there too, have a number of fears in that list.

Several examples stick in my mind of people, great people, civic leaders in some cases who will talk about how Wokeism is getting out of control. A term perpetuate largely by the daily telegraph to pray on their fears. Most, not all will express fears of things that may appear on the list. There are a couple of folks who are a Damn sight more progressive than I am obviously and probably many more who are neither fearful or progressive, just quiet.

The ONS charts quite clearly how voting age is an indicator of voting intention. Young people are more likely to vote for a socialist/liberal parties, oldies for a more illiberal conservative style of government.

But the nail in the coffin for me is that my village helps to keep Michael Fabricant MP in power by voting blue 80%+. This is hardly a sign of great Wisdom in an aging community :).
You obviously only believe in your Own Democratic views.
 
GrannyJen

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.
They fear:
That housing project in the next field
The onshore wind farm
The chicken factory
The new road
The hs2 railway
Progress
Young people
Society being so much worse than it was when they were young.
IMMIGRANTS
other countries.
Socialism in any form
People of colour

They have plenty of time on their hands to campaign against any of the above.
Having recognised your observations as being pertinent, as you replied to me herewith my own personal responses.

1: Yes.If it's a field, producing food, absorbing carbon, yes. If it's brownfield, well, as someone born six years after the blitz, please use it. We have a housing crisis. The home I was born in was a prefab on a bomb site so I know all about recycling.

2: Yes, I oppose it. Today we had an energy crisis. France could not send us enough electricity. We did not have enough wind to fill the gap because we had no wind. . Most of our wind farms are offshore, most of our onshore wind farms are in places where wind is prevalent, places that are also awesome places of natural beauty. As a decrepit old oldie I fought hard for things like operation Neptune, where the National Trust preserved thousands of miles of coastline to protect it from exploitation. Why on Earth should I spend most of my life fighting to preserve our most beautiful places just so a myopic government bereft of ideas and politically sterilised from thinking in the long term national interest should destroy what I fought to preserve for my children? If we can't produce enough wind then think laterally people. We have some of the highest tides in the world and some of the greatest outputs of natural energy around our shores. Preserve and also generate.

3: Most definitely. Regenerative farming is proving to be the best provider.

4: Not at all, but think outside of the box please. Why not a railway to carry the road, is Chunnel the limit of our imagination?

5: It employs thousands of tax payers. Infrastructure projects are a no-brainer Keynesian expression.

6: What the hell is progress? More dosh at the expense of the planet?

7: Young people. Why bonk if you don't want young people and I enjoy(ed) bonking.

8: I was born into a society with rationing, my city destroyed from bombing and my Mum and Dad struggling to survive. How on Earth can it be worse today?

9: Immigrants. The lifeblood of this country. I was born in Brixton by the way when immigration was just starting and was one of the first children in Britain to go to school as white British and be an ethnic minority. I survived, made great friends and just love going to those places my schoolfriend parents called home.

10: Other countries? You mean, goddamn, other cultures? Wow!! Brilliant!!

11: Socialism. I am still ,and have been since 1963, a member of the Labour Party.

12: People of colour? You mean my schoolfriends?

Just my own personal answer.
 
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clarinetbcn

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Hee hee. I love the vibe of solar panels. I like especially Macron’s edict that all roofed car parks must be converted to solar over the next few years.

The only thing I haven’t seen is any statistics that suggest that solar is a carbon positive move! I’ve found nothing that tells me that the carbon cost of mining, production , transport and installation of panels is outweighed by the carbon savings compared with national grid energy.
This reminds me of @WelshGas, someone who spent his professional life in healthcare, saying that smoking doesn’t cause cancer (arguing that since no one knows which 180 will self immolate, they are all healthy as opposed to all suspect.) It must be exhausting to expend the effort to deny the obvious, even though it has been extensively documented.


Drilling for oil using public subsidies, and then shipping it around the world, with all the disasters that this has caused, and then burning it in public when we would never tolerate burning it openly in our own homes, is only second in immorality to building a nuclear power plant to heat OUR homes for 40-50 years, while producing as a "waste" product (another lie, since this was all planned in order to produce nuclear warheads from supposedly innocent "civil" activity) the most toxic substance known to man with a half-life of 100 times the years since the birth of Christ. Fortunately our descendants will not have to deal with this since the human race will be extinct due to fouling its own nest. Good news, 250,000,000 years after the extinction of humans, the earth will be fine.

We really need to become a little more aware of what being egotistical means, namely, protecting our legacy by ensuring the continuity of the human race. Nature (God) couldn’t care less for those who don’t have the courage and generosity to protect not just themselves, but their children and their children's children.
 
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WelshGas

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This reminds me of @WelshGas, someone who spent his professional life in healthcare, saying that smoking doesn’t cause cancer (arguing that since no one knows which 180 will self immolate, they are all healthy as opposed to all suspect.) It must be exhausting to expend the effort to deny the obvious, even though it has been extensively documented.


Drilling for oil using public subsidies, and then shipping it around the world, with all the disasters that this has caused, and then burning it in public when we would never tolerate burning it openly in our own homes, is only second in immorality to building a nuclear power plant to heat OUR homes for 40-50 years, while producing as a "waste" product (another lie, since this was all planned in order to produce nuclear warheads from supposedly innocent "civil" activity) the most toxic substance known to man with a half-life of 100 times the years since the birth of Christ. Fortunately our descendants will not have to deal with this since the human race will be extinct due to fouling its own nest. Good news, 250,000,000 years after the extinction of humans, the earth will be fine.

We really need to become a little more aware of what being egotistical means, namely, protecting our legacy by ensuring the continuity of the human race. Nature (God) couldn’t care less for those who don’t have the courage and generosity to protect not just themselves, but their children and their children's children.
Ahh, the Penny Whistle player from Barcelona is back. Probably a lack of sunshine means he cant post any photos of himself lounging in his solar heated bath.
Someone who ignores facts from the Mayo Institute or Cancer UK who list 10 causes of Lung Cancer, smoking the commonest but just 1 of the causes, ignoring the latest research that implicates environmental pollution as a prime initial cause priming the bodies cells to react to other trigger causes. In fact very similar to Trump, who ignores the evidence if it doesn't fit with his own views , and who tries to shout down those who disagree with him.

Unfortunately evidence always triumphs over his Trumpian actions. Such a shame that he doesn't or can't listen.
 
GrumpyGranddad

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This reminds me of @WelshGas, someone who spent his professional life in healthcare, saying that smoking doesn’t cause cancer (arguing that since no one knows which 180 will self immolate, they are all healthy as opposed to all suspect.) It must be exhausting to expend the effort to deny the obvious, even though it has been extensively documented.


Drilling for oil using public subsidies, and then shipping it around the world, with all the disasters that this has caused, and then burning it in public when we would never tolerate burning it openly in our own homes, is only second in immorality to building a nuclear power plant to heat OUR homes for 40-50 years, while producing as a "waste" product (another lie, since this was all planned in order to produce nuclear warheads from supposedly innocent "civil" activity) the most toxic substance known to man with a half-life of 100 times the years since the birth of Christ. Fortunately our descendants will not have to deal with this since the human race will be extinct due to fouling its own nest. Good news, 250,000,000 years after the extinction of humans, the earth will be fine.

We really need to become a little more aware of what being egotistical means, namely, protecting our legacy by ensuring the continuity of the human race. Nature (God) couldn’t care less for those who don’t have the courage and generosity to protect not just themselves, but their children and their children's children.
The trouble is @clarinetbcn that you can map almost any subject to the climate debate, pick it apart and point fingers. For example:

“The total emissions from London theatres (excluding pre-production and audience travel) are approximately 50,000 tonnes a year. This is roughly equivalent to driving a car 1.5 million times round the M25.”

So, for the sake of the planet maybe we should stop going to the theatre and concerts?
 
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