Home Electricity & Costs - what are you doing?

[clarinetbcn]

And there are also huge new nuclear plants in the pipeline.

Nuclear waste is a NIMBY issue. No one wants a radioactive dump on their territory, and no one currently alive can guarantee that the stuff will stay safe for hundreds of thousands of years, so it’s become NIMBY in the dimension of time: dump it on the poor suckers of the future and let them deal with it, surely they will figure it out. We can hope they do, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s immoral.

 

[2into1]

I heard a stat saying that if every single battery in the UK was available for use, they would power the grid for about 7 minutes.
Don't know how accurate that is but I guess it's in the correct ball park and illustrates the challenge.

 

[Amarillo]

Nuclear waste is a NIMBY issue. No one wants a radioactive dump on their territory, and no one currently alive can guarantee that the stuff will stay safe for hundreds of thousands of years, so it’s become NIMBY in the dimension of time: dump it on the poor suckers of the future and let them deal with it, surely they will figure it out. We can hope they do, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s immoral.

I know. But I’m optimistic that in decades to come tidal power will take over from nuclear as the base load for electricity generation.

With the recent rise in energy prices, and advances in seawater turbine technology, tidal power is beginning to look financially viable without the construction of massive and environmentally destructive sea barrages.

 

[clarinetbcn]

I heard a stat saying that if every single battery in the UK was available for use, they would power the grid for about 7 minutes.
Don't know how accurate that is but I guess it's in the correct ball park and illustrates the challenge.

We need to expand the understanding of what a battery is: Germany has used temporary excess generating capacity to pump water to higher lakes and then generate hydroelectric power with it later for over 100 years, and using momentary excess capacity to produce hydrogen is also a form of battery. I think there are solutions which are respectful to both our environmental needs and to future generations, but these two considerations are still too often and too easily violated for the short-term benefit of our current generation (sic).

 

[Amarillo]

I heard a stat saying that if every single battery in the UK was available for use, they would power the grid for about 7 minutes.
Don't know how accurate that is but I guess it's in the correct ball park and illustrates the challenge.

Energy storage is a big issue. But if there was sufficiently abundant wind capacity to produce green hydrogen, that could be burned to generate power on calm days.

 

[clarinetbcn]

I know. But I’m optimistic that in decades to come tidal power will take over from nuclear as the base load for electricity generation.

With the recent rise in energy prices, and advances in seawater turbine technology, tidal power is beginning to look financially viable without the construction of massive and environmentally destructive sea barrages.

We can hope that that becomes possible, but what about the nuclear waste we are producing right now, and have already produced for the last 60 years. Is it right to plan to increase it, knowing what we do now about the consequences? Japan has only taken 10 years to decide to dump the radioactive water from the Fukushima meltdown into the ocean, not because it’s not contaminated, but because according to Japan’s minister of environment, there is no other realistic solution. Neighboring countries are livid.

 

[clarinetbcn]

We can hope that that becomes possible, but what about the nuclear waste we are producing right now, and have already produced for the last 60 years. Is it right to plan to increase it, knowing what we do now about the consequences? Japan has only taken 10 years to decide to dump the radioactive water from the Fukushima meltdown into the ocean, not because it’s not contaminated, but because according to Japan’s minister of environment, there is no other realistic solution. Neighboring countries are livid.

I’ve seen this sleight of hand before, when the Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant on the coast of California was discovered to have been built on an active earthquake fault, and that Pacific Gas and Electric had suppressed this information. The architects “discovered” that the plant had accidentally been built much stronger than designed. After nearly 30 years of protests it finally went on line. In recent times in the context of Fukushima the state commissioned a study whose result showed that Diablo Canyon is at risk of catastrophic failure, and will be shut down and dismantled over the next 30 years, at taxpayers’ expense, since PG&E has gone bankrupt. The nuclear waste it has generated during its lifetime is stored on site, since nobody knew what to do with it. Was this the “economical, clean energy” we were promised?

 

[pjm-84]

Ignore the media. I've worked in the construction industry for 36yrs and I've seen regulation changes over that period to reduce energy consumption. Latest changes are around 36% improvement on previous regs. To those who dont contribute , this is never far enough.

The changes are small. My house was constructed 20yrs and performance at that time for a wall was 0.45. Now its starting at 0.16 (hard to say as it depends on the notional building and exceeding that target). To put that into some sort of perspective 0.45 - 0.16 = 0.29 saving

0.29 = watts / per m2 per degree difference. So if its 20 inside and outside is 0 then the loss = 0.29 x 20 = 5.8watts per m2.

How much does your oven use? or you dishwasher? or the iron, hairdryer? Remember the old 60watt bulb or 100watt bulb.

 

[clarinetbcn]

Ignore the media. I've worked in the construction industry for 36yrs and I've seen regulation changes over that period to reduce energy consumption. Latest changes are around 36% improvement on previous regs. To those who dont contribute , this is never far enough.

The changes are small. My house was constructed 20yrs and performance at that time for a wall was 0.45. Now its starting at 0.16 (hard to say as it depends on the notional building and exceeding that target). To put that into some sort of perspective 0.45 - 0.16 = 0.29 saving

0.29 = watts / per m2 per degree difference. So if its 20 inside and outside is 0 then the loss = 0.29 x 20 = 5.8watts per m2.

How much does your oven use? or you dishwasher? or the iron, hairdryer? Remember the old 60watt bulb or 100watt bulb.

Unfortunately, these improved regulations, as important as they are, won’t have a major effect for decades unless they are made retroactive to existing buildings. Do we have this time? Spain is starting, retrofitting is now obligatory for public buildings, but you can imagine the screams about who will pay for private retrofitting. The city of Barcelona is an outlier with its public subsidies for retrofitting, and its legal requirements for buildings to pass technical inspections to ensure it’s done.

I remember growing up in Los Ángeles when we weren’t allowed to play outdoors at school because the air was too to toxic for children, and I remember the outrage when smog devices were made obligatory for all used vehicles. Today you can actually see a blue sky in L.A., not possible in the 60s white haze that was physically painful to breathe.

 

[pjm-84]

They will and they have. The problem is we are consumers.

Retro fitting needs to be understood and I have the benefit of 36yrs and many , many constructed buildings. Heating Degree Day calculations is a must and should be considered on retro fitting stock. I've done a few and shown that spending £15 to 40k on additional insulation offers 100yrs + pay back (life span of a commercial building may only be 40yrs) so it would be far better to adapt your lifestyle / operation or spend your money wisely on renewables. I've been pushing PVs since 2006, LEDs, daylight savings, voltage optimisers etc and or future proofing where its cost effective to do so, as the regulations are always tightening.

I do not believe in retrospective law. Do something today that complies but tomorrow it won't. Thats not logical. However I do believe in consquencial improvements when undertaking works, which is a requirement under the regulations and or a material change. Again a requirement

My energy costs have always been low. And based on the above its easy to understand once you understand how energy works and how buildings work. Lifestyle and education is so important.

What really gets my goat, within my profession, is glass houses being pushed as eco houses. The thermal performance of glass is akin to a 60s building (so 60yrs old) and centre point thermal values are alway quoted, ignoring framing loss. Let also not forget the life span of that glazing element breaking down and or breakage, sometimes spontaneously. Throw in 30k + of mechanical plant / heat recovery and annual service costs that exceed my annual heating cost.......the person boast how little it cost to heat, missing the fact he has spent 30k up front and pays more in maintenance ......

I could keep going on........

 

[clarinetbcn]

Very informative post. It may just be a language issue, but retrofitting here includes the installation of PV, not just insulation.

If you don't believe in retroactive law, do you think the Low Emission Zones springing up everywhere should be repealed? We've had several demonstrations of truckers closing down traffic saying just that. Vehicles produced before 2004 are no longer allowed to circulate in most of the city at all.

I agree that lifestyle and education are the most important element here, because something which often gets forgotten, and I do understand the title of this thread, is that retrofitting is not about saving on heating bills, it's about reducing the use of fossil fuels which are damaging our collective nest and the future of our children. I would have installed my system even if it had not lowered my heating bills, which it fortunately has.

You're right about the glass building issue. In Toronto where my family lives, the city is grappling with having allowed a huge expansion of glass sheathed sky scrapers downtown. Now that it's known that these facades will fail in 15-30 years, some literally dropping panels in the streets (it's already started, there a a few streets already closed off) while most others will lose their insulating properties, the future cost of replacing these facades has meant many people no longer want to buy or live in them.

https://www.cbc.ca/toronto/features/condos/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/throw-away-buildings-toronto-s-glass-condos-1.1073319

 

[pjm-84]

No. ULEZ was always predictable. I moved out of London in 1998. Hated it then, hate going back now. Been on the cards for as long as I can remember

When I've changed cars I've always considered options appropriately based on where I think the direction of travel is going, not based on my own financial gains, or inability for foresite. This is my third hybrid since 2015, but I have the Cali, and recently bought a 9yr old XC70 for longer trips. However I walk to and from work.

My late Father was a HGV owner. Back in 1985 I suggested that he runs an aerodyanic body kit of his DAF2800 and estimated it would provide a 2yr payback and provide a modern appearance to a 8yr truck. He refused saying it was pointless and didn't do anything and continued to average 6.5mpg at 32tonne and eventually the business couldn't survive. He spent about 1/3rd of earnings on diesel (Now you're looking at 10 to 12mpg at 44tonnes.)

As a business I have to invest in new technology, training etc.

HGVs pre 2004 are well past their lifespan. I could not use software, printer, plotters for my business dating this far back and they are not cheap either. I can't construct a building to these old standards either.

 

[sidepod]

Lovely toasty warm kitchen today. Dog grabbed pole obvs!

 

[Digger]

Tidal power is the cleanest solution. Tides are reliable and constant. Much better than wind or solar. Pity that politicians are easily convinced by quick fixes and sales pitches which have allowed massive wind farms that ruin our countryside. Scotland is blighted by these sites.

 

[Amarillo]

Tidal power is the cleanest solution. Tides are reliable and constant. Much better than wind or solar. Pity that politicians are easily convinced by quick fixes and sales pitches which have allowed massive wind farms that ruin our countryside. Scotland is blighted by these sites.

The technology for efficient tidal farms is not yet right without massive environmental damage by huge barrages. But it is getting there!

 

[Digger]

The technology for efficient tidal farms is not yet right without massive environmental damage by huge barrages. But it is getting there!

Undersea turbines were trialled up here but failed ( due to poor quality steel and corrosion and lack of real commitment). It requires investment and effort but is achievable if politicians were serious.

 

[Amarillo]

Undersea turbines were trialled up here but failed ( due to poor quality steel and corrosion and lack of real commitment). It requires investment and effort but is achievable if politicians were serious.

Nuclear is about 17% of the UK’s energy mix. Tidal could replace about 10% of that.

=====

Underwater turbines tipped to provide 10% of UK energy

13 JAN, 2022
BY CATHERINE MOORE

Undersea turbines could generate a tenth of Britain’s power in the future, according to a government-backed sustainable energy research company.

Tidal stream energy uses turbines to extract energy from moving water in oceans and rivers, with UK waters holding around half of Europe's tidal stream resource.

Stephen Wyatt, director of of research and disruptive innovation at Offshore Renewable Energy Catapult (ORE) - which was established in 2013 by the government - said the 2020s could be a “golden decade” for the approach.

He told The Independent: “Tidal stream technologies are proven and on the cusp of commercialisation, with the most advanced being home-grown in the UK.

“One of the appealing aspects of tidal is its predicatability. We can forecast tides hundreds of years into the future, covering fluctuations from other power sources – you can’t predict when the sun is going to shine months in advance.

“10% is a significant number. In a world where we’re pushing for net zero, it can really move the dial in terms of UK energy demand.”

According to Wyatt, investment and subsidies could enable the technology to become cost-effective. It could create 26,600 jobs by 2040.

“Tidal energy is on track to be cheaper than both nuclear power and fossil fuels, providing clean and sustainable energy around the world,” he added.

“The UK has put significant funding into innovation and research and development, and a total of 80% of components are made in the UK. There is huge potential to create a lot of jobs in this emerging sector.”

In November it was announced that the UK government will invest £20M per year in tidal stream electricity as part of its flagship renewable energy auction scheme.

The money will be ringfenced for tidal projects each year as part of the fourth allocation round of the Contracts for Difference (CfD) Scheme.

This will give the marine energy sector a chance to develop its technology and lower its costs in a similar way to the UK’s world leading offshore wind industry.

Over time marine technologies have the potential to significantly contribute to decarbonisation commitments and could support hundreds of green jobs across the country, with projects currently in development in north west Scotland, North Wales and the south coast of England.

Tidal energy has the potential to be a very reliable source of generation, given the predictability of the tides. Including this in the UK’s low-carbon energy mix will make it easier to match supply with demand, building on the government’s commitment to build a strong, home-grown renewable energy sector to reduce the reliance on fossil fuels and exposure to volatile global gas prices.

In December, developers of a cost-cutting tidal energy innovation were given £800,000 to make their product commercially viable.

The funding was provided through the government’s Energy Entrepreneurs Fund, which is focussed on funding green energy technologies.

Nova Innovation’s Cost Reduction Acceleration in Tidal Energy (Create) project aims to slash the operation and maintenance costs of tidal energy in remote areas, accelerating the sector towards commercial reality.

Nova claim that its innovation could unlock 100GW of tidal energy resources worldwide

=====

Underwater turbines tipped to provide 10% of UK energy | New Civil Engineer

Tidal stream energy uses turbines to extract energy from moving water in oceans and rivers, with UK waters holding around half of Europe's tidal stream

www.newcivilengineer.com

 

[Velma's Dad]

You would think sea-bed turbines would be a more-do-able technology for harnessing tidal energy than the previous ideas about huge barrages and/or tidal lagoons, eg on the Severn estuary. THose kinds of schemes are always going to humungously hard to get permitted, what with potential impacts on habitats etc. I assume putting some turbines under the water should be much more straightforward if/when the technicalities are solved?

 

[Amarillo]

You would think sea-bed turbines would be a more-do-able technology for harnessing tidal energy than the previous ideas about huge barrages and/or tidal lagoons, eg on the Severn estuary. THose kinds of schemes are always going to humungously hard to get permitted, what with potential impacts on habitats etc. I assume putting some turbines under the water should be much more straightforward if/when the technicalities are solved?

Yes. I think so too. I think I read somewhere that helix type turbines are more efficient in water than the traditional propeller type turbines and they can even float on the water surface in arrays, and rather than being built from the sea bed can be tethered to the sea bed. They can be aligned either horizontally or vertically, and can spin faster than the water flow. I cannot find a cite for that so maybe I dreamt it all up!

 

[GrannyJen]

I really struggle with this.

The Bristol Channel has the second highest tide in the world, at anything from 3 miles to 45 miles wide has enormous energy being generated to the barrage-feasible narrowest point and to my knowledge there have been three proposals for a barrage each considered feasible but "too expensive".

The last one I saw estimated 30 billion, yet we can build HS2 for whatever over 100 billion it's going to cost or an Elizabeth line plus a bit of loose change.

If there was still a vast amount of freight being shipped by sea to Gloucester docks then I could appreciate some of the fallacious objections, if some seabirds were totally incapable of perching on a turbine house I could appreciate more but when you are looking for an alternative to destroying the world or feeding Putin with the dosh to fund a war then surely all that predictable and massive energy can be harnessed somehow.

 

[Amarillo]

I really struggle with this.

The Bristol Channel has the second highest tide in the world, at anything from 3 miles to 45 miles wide has enormous energy being generated to the barrage-feasible narrowest point and to my knowledge there have been three proposals for a barrage each considered feasible but "too expensive".

The last one I saw estimated 30 billion, yet we can build HS2 for whatever over 100 billion it's going to cost or an Elizabeth line plus a bit of loose change.

If there was still a vast amount of freight being shipped by sea to Gloucester docks then I could appreciate some of the fallacious objections, if some seabirds were totally incapable of perching on a turbine house I could appreciate more but when you are looking for an alternative to destroying the world or feeding Putin with the dosh to fund a war then surely all that predictable and massive energy can be harnessed somehow.

One possible reason for not building massive and expensive barrages is that technology is improving so it should be possible to create an underwater tidal power farm without the need for costly barrages.

A 30MW commercial tidal farm is due to become operational in the SW Solent in 2025.

https://perpetuustidal.com/

 

[Perfectos]

Lynmouth has had a tidal turbine on trial for many years now, although not hooked up to the main power grid. Apparently the power generated is in excess of what was expected.

 

[Mansfieldman750]

For anyone with solar panels and a hot water tank at home, there is a simple and cheap little device called the Immersun, which diverts any surplus electricity your panels are generating to the immersion heater in the hot water tank, instead of exporting it to the grid.
It gets better, when the hot water is up to temperature you can piggyback another electric device onto the system. In our case that’s an oil filled radiator. No use in the summer when you don’t want a radiator on but good in spring or autumn. Winter you aren’t generating much electricity anyway.
We have had one since 2011 and it’s been totally reliable. Cost then £400, believe it’s only £499 now. Will work with underfloor heating as well.
In practice what it means is we never have to use the gas boiler to heat water in summer.
Spring and Autumn rarely. Winter no other option, not enough sunshine.
No good if you have a combi boiler, at least I don’t think so.

 

[Vagophile]

if some seabirds were totally incapable of perching on a turbine house I could appreciate more

But what about those fishes that swim up the Severn and Wye to provide sport for our landed gentry?
When the Second Severn Crossing was being built, there was concern about the effects of tracked crane movement on the mudflats disturbing the habitat of some rare bird. In the event it was found that the mud disturbed by the crane tracks was an ideal feeding area for them.
I've never understood why the Severn tidal range has not been exploited, the French showed the way with La Rance near St. Malo.

La Rance: learning from the world’s oldest tidal project - Power Technology

Tidal energy has faced huge challenges, but an overlooked benefit is the lifespans of the technology, as typified by the La Rance power station in France

www.power-technology.com

 

[Velma's Dad]

But what about those fishes that swim up the Severn and Wye to provide sport for our landed gentry?
When the Second Severn Crossing was being built, there was concern about the effects of tracked crane movement on the mudflats disturbing the habitat of some rare bird. In the event it was found that the mud disturbed by the crane tracks was an ideal feeding area for them.
I've never understood why the Severn tidal range has not been exploited, the French showed the way with La Rance near St. Malo.

La Rance: learning from the world’s oldest tidal project - Power Technology

Tidal energy has faced huge challenges, but an overlooked benefit is the lifespans of the technology, as typified by the La Rance power station in France

www.power-technology.com

That Rance article is a good read. It does highlight the kinds of local ecology issues that have to be faced though. Don't forget that the UK's RSPB has more than a million members - it's one of the world's largest conservation organisations.

Maybe there'd be more public support (and hence more willingness by politicians not to give way to special interest groups) for a Severn tidal scheme, while electricity costs and energy security are top of mind.

The loss of one or two rare birdy species in Britain - even if that actually happened - seems to me to be a price worth paying to head off massive CC-created biodiversity losses in other parts of the world (not least from sea level changes - ironic when we're talking about barrage schemes). But that's always going to be a hard sell to the public.