Oil Comsumption / Engine Problems with 2010/2011 Cali's

[AlanC]

I read recently that engine oil is only really effective to about 7K miles, after this is deteriorates quickly.
Changing it at 10k miles is pushing it if that is the case, and 20k miles would seem to be plain stupidity!

Alan

 

[T6 CFO]

A quick punt round and I come up with VW PDF

http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/assets/common/content/owners/Longlife_servicing.pdf

NB: it's a 2007 document but nothing changed as far as I am aware.

Advice on which regime to pick seems sensible.



Mike

 

[WelshGas]

Unt

I read recently that engine oil is only really effective to about 7K miles, after this is deteriorates quickly.
Changing it at 10k miles is pushing it if that is the case, and 20k miles would seem to be plain stupidity!

Alan

Untrue.
But it would seem that the majority of California owners should be on an annual Service because of the low annual mileage and prolonged storage time their vehicles experience.
Of course those owners that bought the VW Service plan with their vehicles will have a problem as they will be restricted to the LongLife Service Plan.

 

[AlanC]

You say untrue, but all my research tells another story about the quality of oil and the distance it is used in an engine.

This from the Oil Consumption page on Facebook for instance;
Craig Sharp I used to work in a Laboratory doing oil analysis a few years back. I also looked at a van yesterday and noticed that the service intervals in the van are about 20000km is this correct?. The reason i ask is NO and i mean NO oil on the market can last that long, Most oils we found were lucky to last 5-7000km before they were affected by viscosity and contaminates. Every car and motor bike I've owned has had oil changes at 5000km or there abouts. Oil is the live blood of your vehicle I would recommend changing it every 10000km at the most.

This is further backed up by various sites on the web, such as
http://www.clark.com/oil-change

or this:
The Mobil 1 brand includes synthetic oils designed for specific purposes such as high mileage vehicles, racing engines and turbo diesel trucks.

The majority of auto manufacturers call for oil changes at intervals of 7,500 or 10,000 miles on new passenger vehicles. The longer intervals are often found in vehicles where the owner's manual specifies synthetic oil or a synthetic blend. Jaguars using synthetic oil have a 15,000 mile change schedule.

https://www.reference.com/vehicles/...l-ff733dcc4e65aed0?qo=contentSimilarQuestions

OK, they are American sites where most drivers seem to change their oil at 3000 miles, and the mileage available for fully synthetic oil is greater than natural oil, however, they all indicate a lower mileage than the VW 20k. So I am assuming this figure is a sop to the consumer rather than anything based on fact?

Alan

 

[BerndRos]

I will definitely be treating my second engine to the 'time & distance' regime, even though my understanding of the EGR issue is likely a different issue.

 

[WelshGas]

You say untrue, but all my research tells another story about the quality of oil and the distance it is used in an engine.

This from the Oil Consumption page on Facebook for instance;
Craig Sharp I used to work in a Laboratory doing oil analysis a few years back. I also looked at a van yesterday and noticed that the service intervals in the van are about 20000km is this correct?. The reason i ask is NO and i mean NO oil on the market can last that long, Most oils we found were lucky to last 5-7000km before they were affected by viscosity and contaminates. Every car and motor bike I've owned has had oil changes at 5000km or there abouts. Oil is the live blood of your vehicle I would recommend changing it every 10000km at the most.

This is further backed up by various sites on the web, such as
http://www.clark.com/oil-change

or this:
The Mobil 1 brand includes synthetic oils designed for specific purposes such as high mileage vehicles, racing engines and turbo diesel trucks.

The majority of auto manufacturers call for oil changes at intervals of 7,500 or 10,000 miles on new passenger vehicles. The longer intervals are often found in vehicles where the owner's manual specifies synthetic oil or a synthetic blend. Jaguars using synthetic oil have a 15,000 mile change schedule.

https://www.reference.com/vehicles/...l-ff733dcc4e65aed0?qo=contentSimilarQuestions

OK, they are American sites where most drivers seem to change their oil at 3000 miles, and the mileage available for fully synthetic oil is greater than natural oil, however, they all indicate a lower mileage than the VW 20k. So I am assuming this figure is a sop to the consumer rather than anything based on fact?

Alan

As I said, Untrue, unless you do a low annual mileage or drive in abnormal conditions frequently. VW have developed a very sophisticated Oil/Service monitoring system and the use of a very expensive Synthetic oil . As far as servicing costs are concerned there is very little difference as low mileage stop/start driving styles are monitored as well as the oil contamination etc: resulting in more frequent Servicing and oil changes, as compared to frequent high mileage services.
Many UK car manufacturers, as you quoted Jaguar, have more frequent service intervals, not because they need them, but to err on the side of caution as they do not have the same built in monitoring systems.
The site you mentioned is not that credible and certainly does not offer any high level evidence, nor do the majority of the American sites.
You can change the oil as frequently as you wish, but the only thing that will have an effect on the degree of engine wear is the use of the recommended oil for that engine and the driving style coupled with using the correct filters.
Here is some information on Oil Specifications.
http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/vw_motor_oil_specifications_explained.php

If the vehicle does not have a Service monitoring system monitoring Oil contamination and driving style etc: then the manufacturer stipulates a lower Oil Change interval as it saves them the cost of developing and fitting such a system and passes the buck to the owner.

 

[BerndRos]

As I said, Untrue, unless you do a low annual mileage or drive in abnormal conditions frequently. VW have developed a very sophisticated Oil/Service monitoring system and the use of a very expensive Synthetic oil . As far as servicing costs are concerned there is very little difference as low mileage stop/start driving styles are monitored as well as the oil contamination etc: resulting in more frequent Servicing and oil changes, as compared to frequent high mileage services.
Many UK car manufacturers, as you quoted Jaguar, have more frequent service intervals, not because they need them, but to err on the side of caution as they do not have the same built in monitoring systems.
The site you mentioned is not that credible and certainly does not offer any high level evidence, nor do the majority of the American sites.
You can change the oil as frequently as you wish, but the only thing that will have an effect on the degree of engine wear is the use of the recommended oil for that engine and the driving style coupled with using the correct filters.
Here is some information on Oil Specifications.
http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/vw_motor_oil_specifications_explained.php

If the vehicle does not have a Service monitoring system monitoring Oil contamination and driving style etc: then the manufacturer stipulates a lower Oil Change interval as it saves them the cost of developing and fitting such a system and passes the buck to the owner.

With respect WG, if VW cannot get an EGR to work correctly, without destroying the engine it's attached to, I would have zero faith in their ability to monitor various outputs, in order to make assumptions on the Long Life service regime.

It's all utter faff on VWs part.

 

[WelshGas]

With respect WG, if VW cannot get an EGR to work correctly, without destroying the engine it's attached to, I would have zero faith in their ability to monitor various outputs, in order to make assumptions on the Long Life service regime.

It's all utter faff on VWs part.

I know you and AlanC and others, are not on best terms with VW but I have to disagree with your comment.
The EGR valves worked. The alloy it was made of did not. Who made the EGR valve - not VW, who designed the EGR, possibly VW, but was it a design that specified function and materials or just function. The EGR valve was probably used on other vehicles and by other manufacturers, not just on the 180 biturbo CFCA engine.
Strange that not every 180 engine was affected if it was a common part.
Theories abound on the Internet but Evidence, not so common.

You have your views regarding VW. I have my evidence based views.

I hope both you and AlanC have a better 2017 .

 

[BerndRos]

Whether we are on good or bad terms with VW is not the point.

As you know, it was thought that only a batch of 180 CFCA engines from 2010/11 were affected, there is a VW TPI dated from 2011.

But, from the evidence posted further up in this thread, which is indisputable, there was another TPI issued late last year. Also for some bizarre reason they were still fitting version 'C' of the EGR as late as last year. LarsLarsen even had this version fitted to his replacement engine, which is now having issues.

I had my replacement engine this year and have version 'D' of the EGR, which apparently is OK.

As for why some engines fail and others do not, who knows ?

One thing though is for sure, based on evidence within this thread, which cannot be disputed, every 180 CFCA engine built between 2010 & late 2015, is at potential risk of this issue.

 

[Bibs]

Manufacturers introduced longlife service intervals specifically to appease the fleet market and Company accountants with scant regard for the long term life of the vehicle`s engine. These cars are generally dumped on the second hand market after 3 years to land some poor unsuspecting punter with some very expensive bills.

 

[WelshGas]

Manufacturers introduced longlife service intervals specifically to appease the fleet market and Company accountants with scant regard for the long term life of the vehicle`s engine. These cars are generally dumped on the second hand market after 3 years to land some poor unsuspecting punter with some very expensive bills.

And the peer reviewed evidence for this statement is found where?

 

[2into1]

It's a shame to see this thread veering off topic. Owners of BiTurbo Cali's need to understand the risks to their engines and that risk has very little to do with which of the two service regimes you are following.

If your egr starts disintegrating and throwing diamond hard grit into your cylinders, changing the oil every two weeks isn't going to save you.

 

[WelshGas]

Whether we are on good or bad terms with VW is not the point.

As you know, it was thought that only a batch of 180 CFCA engines from 2010/11 were affected, there is a VW TPI dated from 2011.

But, from the evidence posted further up in this thread, which is indisputable, there was another TPI issued late last year. Also for some bizarre reason they were still fitting version 'C' of the EGR as late as last year. LarsLarsen even had this version fitted to his replacement engine, which is now having issues.

I had my replacement engine this year and have version 'D' of the EGR, which apparently is OK.

As for why some engines fail and others do not, who knows ?

One thing though is for sure, based on evidence within this thread, which cannot be disputed, every 180 CFCA engine built between 2010 & late 2015, is at potential risk of this issue.

If the evidence is " Indisputable " as to the cause then why are ALL 180 engines NOT affected.

This is a contradiction. There must be some other factor involved, some factor that protects some engines and not others. Therefore the evidence is NOT indisputable.

 

[mjrose]

Manufacturers introduced longlife service intervals specifically to appease the fleet market and Company accountants with scant regard for the long term life of the vehicle`s engine. These cars are generally dumped on the second hand market after 3 years to land some poor unsuspecting punter with some very expensive bills.

What tosh. If this was true, then the second hand market would eventually recognise this and reject such vehicles. They do not. If fact the residuals of VAG group vehicles are some of the best.

I have a 2007 octavia on 195k and serviced on a variable service routine (usually 20k between services). It runs perfectly, pulls as hard as it ever has and feels that it will do another 200k miles easily. High mileage VAG group cars and vans that have been ran on variable services are not unusual and nothing to be wary of.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[AlanC]

If the evidence is " Indisputable " as to the cause then why are ALL 180 engines NOT affected.

This is a contradiction. There must be some other factor involved, some factor that protects some engines and not others. Therefore the evidence is NOT indisputable.

There are an increasing number of BiTurbos of younger age than 2010-2011 that are now being affected. Look at the Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/vwcfca/ for proof.

I woudn't be complacent, my oil problem kicked in at 80k miles and others have been affected at 40K-50K miles.

It seems to me it is just a matter of time before most 180BHP BiTurbos will be affected, except the T6 range which is fitted with Euro 6 engines using AdBlu. and doesn't use an EGR.

The jury is out on the new D suffix EGR.

Alan

 

[WelshGas]

There are an increasing number of BiTurbos of younger age than 2010-2011 that are now being affected. Look at the Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/vwcfca/ for proof.

I woudn't be complacent, my oil problem kicked in at 80k miles and others have been affected at 40K-50K miles.

It seems to me it is just a matter of time before most 180BHP BiTurbos will be affected, except the T6 range which is fitted with Euro 6 engines using AdBlu. and doesn't use an EGR.

The jury is out on the new D suffix EGR.

Alan

And who told you the T6 Euro 6 engines don't have an EGR system. The same people who state that LongLife oil is rubbish.

https://www.volkswagen-vans.co.uk/media/2452957/transporter_t6_brochure.pdf



I'm not getting at you but if statements are made on a public forum then they should be correct. Virtually all Euro 6 Diesel engines have an EGR system and most combine it with the SCR ( Adblue ) system. In fact I've not found any Euro 6 automotive diesel without an EGR, but I stand corrected if there is one.

 

[AlanC]

Sorry, that was my mistake, I assumed that AdBlue replaced the EGR not supplement it. I stand corrected.

Alan

 

[Bobbybus]

Post 261gave the serial numbers for old and new EGR as; 03L.115.512.C and 03L.115.512.D
The sticker next to the oil filter on my 2011 bi-turbo states; 03L.115.512, ie no C/D! This confuses me. What have I got? The full details on the sticker state; kombikuler 2.0L, 03l.115.512, pierburg 24/MA/11, 11 114 00077 Q 03, 7.02756.01
I have ordered an oil sampling kit from Miller oils. The kit I ordered allows the initial test then another, say 6 months later to check for any deteriation. £39.95

 

[AlanC]

As your van was registered in 2011, the betting is that the original EGR is still fitted.

This is confirmed by the lack of a suffix letter (latest is D) and the date, 24/MA/11. I am not certain if that is 24th MArch 2011 or 24th MAy 2011, either way, this is one of the EGR Coolers considered to be causing the bore wear.

Sorry to be the harbinger of bad tidings at this time of the year.

Alan

 

[Bobbybus]

Thanks Alan. Guess I better get saving for a replacement EGR/engine!
It will be interesting to see the result of the oil sample (35,000 miles at the moment and not using oil). I'll let you know when I get a result.

 

[B J G]

Sorry, that was my mistake, I assumed that AdBlue replaced the EGR not supplement it. I stand corrected.

Alan

As I understand it Euro 6 required every mode of engine emission control to achieve. It was a step beyond manufacturer's comfort zone.
HGV's needed bigger radiators to cope with the higher engine temperatures needed to get a cleaner burn.If you look at new HGV's you'll notice big grills to get the air in.

I worry about my forthcoming 204 engined T6 having 'issues' in future.

 

[calicasas]

It's a shame to see this thread veering off topic. Owners of BiTurbo Cali's need to understand the risks to their engines and that risk has very little to do with which of the two service regimes you are following.

If your egr starts disintegrating and throwing diamond hard grit into your cylinders, changing the oil every two weeks isn't going to save you.

Only one question... Why are VW stating that the CFCA engine service regime now needs to be changed? Local dealer in Guildford have stated this clearly. Obviously and aside from the other problems the engine may have, VW seem to be also concerned about the service regime. My take is that there may be a mixture of problems rather than just one. I do agree the EGR is also an issue and which I am looking to get changed as a preventative measure, but I will also get the service regime changed whilst I am at it... I don't think VW are telling us the whole story...

 

[WelshGas]

Only one question... Why are VW stating that the CFCA engine service regime now needs to be changed? Local dealer in Guildford have stated this clearly. Obviously and aside from the other problems the engine may have, VW seem to be also concerned about the service regime. My take is that there may be a mixture of problems rather than just one. I do agree the EGR is also an issue and which I am looking to get changed as a preventative measure, but I will also get the service regime changed whilst I am at it... I don't think VW are telling us the whole story...

My Dealership is not aware of any VW requirement to change Service Requirements as long as the requirements for the Long Life Service schedule are met.

That means an average mileage of about 9-10,000 miles / Year.

 

[2into1]

Only one question... Why are VW stating that the CFCA engine service regime now needs to be changed? Local dealer in Guildford have stated this clearly. Obviously and aside from the other problems the engine may have, VW seem to be also concerned about the service regime. My take is that there may be a mixture of problems rather than just one. I do agree the EGR is also an issue and which I am looking to get changed as a preventative measure, but I will also get the service regime changed whilst I am at it... I don't think VW are telling us the whole story...

My point was I think it's a (relative) side issue for these engines (given the info we have to hand). I'm not voting for or against big service intervals, I just didn't want to see the egr issue get lost as the servicing debate hotted up.

 

[calicasas]

My point was I think it's a (relative) side issue for these engines (given the info we have to hand). I'm not voting for or against big service intervals, I just didn't want to see the egr issue get lost as the servicing debate hotted up.

Yes, I would agree, the main issue here is still the EGR problem... VW needs to get their act together on this; and issue formal guidance here in the UK... They should also issue more formal guidance if they think there may be other issues relating to service intervals...