Oil Comsumption / Engine Problems with 2010/2011 Cali's

[Rubberdubber]

Teflon, maybe

 

[Rubberdubber]

I was worried about the surface of the metals inside deteriorating and if one the EGR gas side why not the opposite coolant side or areas where oil passes through but from what you have described, if it's a chemical reaction between the exhaust gas and metal then it shouldn't really happen anywhere else, so that's reassuring.
Any thoughts about blanking both sides and coding out? I have had a few vehicles over the years with either blanked of dialed down (diagnostically) EGRs and no issues so far with MOTs. Appreciate this is a different animal but we are intending keeping it for a long time and so re-sale concerns not so much at the moment.

 

[AlanC]

Hi that’s the vw fix I suppose it would be possible to fit a 140 egr unit and change all the pipe work but it would be interesting as there is not much room for it on the 180 due to the twin turbo unit. As for the oil cooler the external engine block is the same as the 140 so to fit a 140 oil filter housing would be ok just a pipe work change .There has been no issues with the end of line 180s since 2015 that I know of but we are only 3 years in. When I say plastic coating it’s a bit of a generalization the coating is a bit more complex than that so as far as I know it should solve the issue

Just to add, I had a new base engine fitted in Dec 2016. This has the 'D' suffix cooler.

Since then (15k miles driven) the new engine has not consumed any oil. I did have the service times changed to 10k miles or a year, depending on what comes first, rather than stick to the 20k miles service which I have always been concerned about.

The current MOT has changed and now testing the emissions of diesel engines is much more rigorous. If you blank the ERG valve and cooler, your emissions will change, (plus the DPF may well clog up sooner), and the MOT test should pick this up and fail the van.

Alan

 

[Rubberdubber]

I did speak to my local MOT station, they said they had a few vehicles in, which they knew had no DPFs and if they get a good fast run just before the test they pass fine. The emissions are higher than a fully DPF'd vehicle but low enough to pass. I am not sure the EGR being blanked is going to create more soot, I would need to believe that the soot being burnt second time around is actually going to be less and so the EGR doing it's job as claimed. Why would it burn more second time rather than first, same heat, same compression, surely better to get more clean air in and a better burn in the first place, rubbish all out the back. If I do it and I haven't made my mind up yet, I would need to make sure it gets a good fast run regularly to keep the soot down.

 

[VW Guru]

I did speak to my local MOT station, they said they had a few vehicles in, which they knew had no DPFs and if they get a good fast run just before the test they pass fine. The emissions are higher than a fully DPF'd vehicle but low enough to pass. I am not sure the EGR being blanked is going to create more soot, I would need to believe that the soot being burnt second time around is actually going to be less and so the EGR doing it's job as claimed. Why would it burn more second time rather than first, same heat, same compression, surely better to get more clean air in and a better burn in the first place, rubbish all out the back. If I do it and I haven't made my mind up yet, I would need to make sure it gets a good fast run regularly to keep the soot down.

Hi In basics the reason for egr is to lower cylinder temperatures. If you burn clean air and fuel you raise cylinder temperatures creating more NOx, by introducing inert gas (exhaust gas) via the egr valve you get the the same amount of air fuel mixture in the cylinder but it burns at a lower temperature creating less NOx

 

[Rubberdubber]

Ah yes, NOx being the stuff we ignored in the Uk until recently...oops!

 

[larrylamb]

I notice on the Facebook group another 2010 Cali potentially has the oil consumption issue, anyone on here?
Interesting to note the EGR was changed in 2015.

 

[VW Guru]

Damage would have already been done by then

 

[Pro moochers]

Evening all.
To save me reading through over 400 posts, can anyone confirm which reg GUARANTEES there won’t be an oil usage issue?
It seems it’s just the 2010/2011 versions, does this mean 2012/2013 are out of the woods?
Thanks


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[2into1]

seems it’s just the 2010/2011 versions, does this mean 2012/2013 are out of the woods?

You won't get any guarantees.

It's believed the 10/11s had a different issue in addition to egr cooler disintegration. So an 12 onwards in a safer bet than a 10/11 but vans as late as 2014s (perhaps later) have been supplied with coolers older than the '/D' which is regarded as the solution.

You really need to do the homework and check the specific cooler on the specific van.

 

[Pro moochers]

You won't get any guarantees.

It's believed the 10/11s had a different issue in addition to egr cooler disintegration. So an 12 onwards in a safer bet than a 10/11 but vans as late as 2014s (perhaps later) have been supplied with coolers older than the '/D' which is regarded as the solution.

You really need to do the homework and check the specific cooler on the specific van.

Is it possible to buy a BiTDI and take it to a dealership to have the part changed to ensure trouble free motoring? Or is that just too easy?


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[Perfectos]

It is possible to change the parts to upgrade, however if the damage to the engine is already done there’s not going back !

 

[WelshGas]

You won't get any guarantees.

It's believed the 10/11s had a different issue in addition to egr cooler disintegration. So an 12 onwards in a safer bet than a 10/11 but vans as late as 2014s (perhaps later) have been supplied with coolers older than the '/D' which is regarded as the solution.

You really need to do the homework and check the specific cooler on the specific van.

2014 180 BiTurbo now on 82,368 miles. Oil Usage 500 mls/20,000 miles. Oh and it has the A egr.

No disputing there was a problem with 2010/11 CFCA 180 engines. Thereafter, pure supposition as to the actual cause and probably multi-factorial and most of the ones mentioned on the Facebook group are low milage 2010/11 vehicles. Of those that were not other factors were at play.

 

[Perfectos]

for every reported case of oil usage there are an awful lot that have no problems at all, every make and model has potential issues.
As Welsh gas rightly points out those with high oil consumption appear to have been associated with relatively low miles.
There is no ryme or reason to the increased oil in a few but not others.

 

[2into1]

Is it possible to buy a BiTDI and take it to a dealership to have the part changed to ensure trouble free motoring? Or is that just too easy?

Some have done a preemptive change of the egr valve and cooler to a ‘/d’ but it’s well over £1k job. Some have been lucky to have an earlier cooler fail under warranty and get a /d fitted early on and FOC. If you believe the causal argument (that the cooler fins fall to bits, turn to effectively carborundum and are fed into the engine which wears the cylinder bores and pistons) then you’d need to be confident this hasn’t started with a compression test or an oil consumption check over a 1000 miles or so. Otherwise the change could be too late.

Whenever this issue crops up, I chip in with my knowledge gained from reading the available experiences and welshgas refutes it. You really need to do some independent reading, particularly of the Facebook group on the matter, as the cross section of vans there is better and includes vans putting on miles faster than your average Cali owner.

Neither welshgas or I have collected stats as to the make up of failing vans in the Facebook group, but his estimate of ‘non 10/11 vans’ is very different to mine.

 

[WelshGas]

Some have done a preemptive change of the egr valve and cooler to a ‘/d’ but it’s well over £1k job. Some have been lucky to have an earlier cooler fail under warranty and get a /d fitted early on and FOC. If you believe the causal argument (that the cooler fins fall to bits, turn to effectively carborundum and are fed into the engine which wears the cylinder bores and pistons) then you’d need to be confident this hasn’t started with a compression test or an oil consumption check over a 1000 miles or so. Otherwise the change could be too late.

Whenever this issue crops up, I chip in with my knowledge gained from reading the available experiences and welshgas refutes it. You really need to do some independent reading, particularly of the Facebook group on the matter, as the cross section of vans there is better and includes vans putting on miles faster than your average Cali owner.

Neither welshgas or I have collected stats as to the make up of failing vans in the Facebook group, but his estimate of ‘non 10/11 vans’ is very different to mine.

Compared to the numbers of vans sold the number of individual vehicles affected are miniscule.

 

[AlanC]

WG, that statement is too sweeping.

If you are saying compared to the number of T5.1 vans sold, then you are right.

But of this number, how many were 180bhp engined ones? That is the number you need to make comparisons with.

We have it on good authority from a forum member, who is a Master Tech with a VW dealer, that VW considered this issue finally cured on the BiTurbo engine in 2015.

The 2010/11 engine was the worst effected, to the point that VW Customer Service knew the engine numbers and VIN numbers of affected vehicles. EGR cooler models with the suffixes up to C were not a definitive cure. The D suffix EGR cooler is considered to be the definitive one.

Not all 180bhp engines were effected, but sufficient were for the Norwegian ambulance service to have all their fleet engines changed.

Many more will have been fleet vans which were under contract and nothing is likely to have been said about them. We have heard mainly from private owners who make up a small proportion of vehicle owners.

Had I known about this issue before I bought a used Cali I would have steered well clear of the BiTurbo engine.

Alan

 

[WelshGas]

WG, that statement is too sweeping.

If you are saying compared to the number of T5.1 vans sold, then you are right.

But of this number, how many were 180bhp engined ones? That is the number you need to make comparisons with.

We have it on good authority from a forum member, who is a Master Tech with a VW dealer, that VW considered this issue finally cured on the BiTurbo engine in 2015.

The 2010/11 engine was the worst effected, to the point that VW Customer Service knew the engine numbers and VIN numbers of affected vehicles. EGR cooler models with the suffixes up to C were not a definitive cure. The D suffix EGR cooler is considered to be the definitive one.

Not all 180bhp engines were effected, but sufficient were for the Norwegian ambulance service to have all their fleet engines changed.

Many more will have been fleet vans which were under contract and nothing is likely to have been said about them. We have heard mainly from private owners who make up a small proportion of vehicle owners.

Had I known about this issue before I bought a used Cali I would have steered well clear of the BiTurbo engine.

Alan

I think you would find, if examined in detail, the Norwegian Ambulance service engine change has very little to do if anything with this supposed problem relating to the EGR. The fleet had the engines changed and guess what " A " suffice EGR assemblies fitted.
If the EGR is the " sole " cause then every vehicle equipped with this EGR would be affected. They are not.
On the Facebook group the number of vehicles reported outside the 2010/2012 group are small. The EGR maybe part of the problem but if it wasn't fixed until 2015 then there should be hundreds of not thousands worldwide and there aren't. The problem is multifactorial, and as yet no one on that Facebook group has taken VW to court. A lot of talk but very little action because they have very little evidence.
There have been reports of T6s with excessive oil consumption, post 2015. Is the EGR implicated there?

 

[BerndRos]

Whatever the arguments about what is, and is not affected, the fact remains that if afflicted its costly to sort out.

Purchased mine new in March 2010, 45000 miles later in summer 2015 it went from using very little oil to using a litre every few hundred miles, the usage coming on within weeks. Was in Germany at the time, called at a VW garage in Trier and they knew all about it, having already replaced several engines. Back in UK I had a new engine fitted in early 2016, the cost of approx £7500 split 70% to VW & 30% to me. Although I did not know or think it at the time I was lucky, as shortly after VW stopped making contributions. I think Alan C had to pay the whole cost himself ?

Have had no issues since, van runs like a dream, I do not have it on long life service but change the oil yearly regardless of mileage done.

Beware before you buy a 180BHP Bi Turbo.

 

[Meoncoast]

Whatever the arguments about what is, and is not affected, the fact remains that if afflicted its costly to sort out.

Purchased mine new in March 2010, 45000 miles later in summer 2015 it went from using very little oil to using a litre every few hundred miles, the usage coming on within weeks. Was in Germany at the time, called at a VW garage in Trier and they knew all about it, having already replaced several engines. Back in UK I had a new engine fitted in early 2016, the cost of approx £7500 split 70% to VW & 30% to me. Although I did not know or think it at the time I was lucky, as shortly after VW stopped making contributions. I think Alan C had to pay the whole cost himself ?

Have had no issues since, van runs like a dream, I do not have it on long life service but change the oil yearly regardless of mileage done.

Beware before you buy a 180BHP Bi Turbo.

We sold ours at the end of 2016 (trade-in) and although we had no oil usage in our higher than average mileage 180BHP Bi-Turbo I know a fellow member on here was interested in the van and paid for a compression check when he was thinking of buying and although the van had no symptoms of engine issues it was found to have issue with compression in 1 cylinder. I could not fault our T5 but feel I could have had a lucky escape from future repair bills by selling when we did - I am sure there are many 180s issue free but I would not risk the gamble of getting another.

 

[WelshGas]

As long as a prospective buyer is aware of the problem, especially in relation to the 2010/11 engines and makes an informed decision that's fine. But to make sweeping statements that All 180's are affected or should be avoided is disingenuous and incorrect without some cast iron evidence to back up that statement.

 

[Perfectos]

Calis suffer roof rot, not all but some, be aware of it and check yes, but remember not all suffer from the same issues.

Sweeping statements are easy to make and assumptions easily reached.

Tarring all Bi 180’s with the same brush is throwing the baby out with the bath water !

The fact remains that there are many many Bi180’s out there with no issues.

I have a favourite saying : No good can come of face book !

 

[BerndRos]

I can’t see that anyone is or has tried to say all vans are affected.

The Q is, why run the risk of a £7500 bill for a new engine ?....remember the issue comes on with no notice and within the van doing less miles than it will do on a full tank. That is a reality as anyone who has had the issue will confirm.

 

[BerndRos]

Calis suffer roof rot, not all but some, be aware of it and check yes, but remember not all suffer from the same issues.

Sweeping statements are easy to make and assumptions easily reached.

Tarring all Bi 180’s with the same brush is throwing the baby out with the bath water !

The fact remains that there are many many Bi180’s out there with no issues.

I have a favourite saying : No good can come of face book !

You can check for roof rot, you can’t really check for this engine malady. The former is inexpensive to put right, the later is not.

There is no comparison.

 

[AlanC]

I think you would find, if examined in detail, the Norwegian Ambulance service engine change has very little to do if anything with this supposed problem relating to the EGR. The fleet had the engines changed and guess what " A " suffice EGR assemblies fitted.
If the EGR is the " sole " cause then every vehicle equipped with this EGR would be affected. They are not.
On the Facebook group the number of vehicles reported outside the 2010/2012 group are small. The EGR maybe part of the problem but if it wasn't fixed until 2015 then there should be hundreds of not thousands worldwide and there aren't. The problem is multifactorial, and as yet no one on that Facebook group has taken VW to court. A lot of talk but very little action because they have very little evidence.
There have been reports of T6s with excessive oil consumption, post 2015. Is the EGR implicated there?

That is a very confused statement. "I think you would find, if examined in detail, the Norwegian Ambulance service engine change has very little to do if anything with this supposed problem relating to the EGR. The fleet had the engines changed and guess what " A " suffice EGR assemblies fitted."

That begs the question 'why did they do it'? Why change engines of a national fleet of ambulances? No operation would want to spend that amount of money unless there was a very good reason. If the vehicle supplier instituted the change, then they would also need a good reason, even if they were supported by VW Norge.

As most van sales are fleet sales, I doubt we would know how many of those were affected or resolved either by having new engines fitted or being sold because of the issue.

When my van went in to have the engine changed in 2016, it was the third van to have this work done that month, according to my Service Manger. Just by scaling that up across the official dealer network gives some indication of the potential numbers with this issue.

The Facebook page is private owners who do not have the resources to take on VWUK or VW Germany.

BTW, following the new engine being fitted in 2016, I also changed the service period to yearly and for the last two years, covering a total of 19k miles, have not consumed any oil between changes . That is absolutely none, and I do check my engine fluid levels regularly.

Alan