The New All electric California due in Autumn 2019. What are you thoughts?

[reserves]

Trying to buy an Electric Smart Car for my wife. Due for release in October 2019. Present Smart car production using fossil fuels has stopped. Mercedes have now informed me that orders are not being taken in the forseable future, possibly upto a year, because of Battery problems and longterm manufacturing problems relating to the batteries.
Fossil fuels will be around a lot longer than the Politicians and tree huggers think.

Buy a Model 3

 

[Amarillo]

Fossil fuels will be around a lot longer than the Politicians and tree huggers think.

Surely you don't mean that!? If battery technology stalls, fossil fuels are likely to be depleted sooner, and not "be around a lot longer".

 

[Perfectos]

Good evening,

I don't believe that full electric cars can replace vehicles with combustion engines soon - so I said it

Even if in the near future the battery development manages to produce batteries with high capacity, good for 500 - 600 km (realistically), from where is the electricity coming from (which first all countries in Europe must develop a framework for recharging)? I don't know how many vehicles we have in Ireland or in Europe, but if only 25% of those cars would be full electric that is a lot of electricity (on top of everything else) that need to be produced.

Germany made a clear commitment to close down all nuclear power stations in the future (can't remember in what year), other countries might (maybe even should) follow. Does that mean we have to produce all this electricity from renewable resources? I have a small shadow of a doubt.

In my workplace the number of electric cars are growing. Talking to the drivers I hear one thing only - it is cheap to run. How is this achieved? By using the options of free recharging either from the county council, shopping malls or in work. I believe the hunger for electric cars will get a dent as soon as all those drivers need to charger their car at home, paying for it. I know that we all have to pay a lot at the petrol station, but suddenly to get a high electricity bill...

Please, don't get me wrong. I am not against environment protection. But I try to be realistic and pragmatic.

In the last 70 years Europe created an environment that rely to commute. Work and shopping is in the inner cities. Living is in the country side, out of the cities (mainly because nobody can afford a house, apartment to buy or rent in the city). It is a gigantic effort to improve the public transport (bus and train) to improve the service outside the cities (which was neglected in all the years because everybody was driving).

What about all the tourist areas in Europe. Almost all of them rely on visitors using cars, buses, planes, ships, campers or motorbikes. I couldn't imagine how live would like for those people living and working in the tourist areas. Areas which have a natural beauty but without tourists bitterly poor.

We all got use to affordable flights. Hopping over to America - no problem, hopping over to Australia - no problem, hopping over to Frankfurt - no problem (well that is a problem for me, I start to dislike flying ). Losing this, does that mean we can't visit our relatives oversees anymore?

I believe we need more time, which we (humanity) might not have. Wouldn't it be more realistic if for instance we scale down of what we have, meaning continue to use combustion engines - but smaller ones. Is it necessary to have a 3l engine with 275 BHP? There are engines with 1L and 90 BHP using realistically less than 50% of petrol / diesel. There is a hype that only "sporty" and "powerful" cars can achieve what we need to achieve. And this is the point that I believe we need to change. I believe we can continue to live in the same way - but scaled down, which in turn takes pressure off the environment and buys us the time we need.

In my mind the near future would be in parallel to scale down the vehicles with combustion engine and at the same time try to find alternatives (public transport, make living in the cities affordable ((hence avoid or reduce traffic in the first place)) develop electric cars / vans / trucks, look for an alternative to combustion engine ((not electric)), tackle the other sources of environmental pollution).

Just may thoughts about this.

Regards,
Eberhard

Well written and to the point

 

[Perfectos]

The resources used to create these new fandango electrified jallopies is immense.
Where does the ongoing electric supply come from for the new and increase exponential increase in electricity come from ?
nuclear ?
Fossil fuel?
Other ?

I bet my little finger that end of life and full life recycling has not even been considered with the “green credentials” let alone how many million KWs of electricity will be required over 100,000 miles use we comfortably achieve from a new vehicle nowadays.

i just can’t get my head around the scale of the issue and the fact that no one has a credible solution to the world wide electrical consumption required to charge tens of millions of battery operated vehicles and who is going to pay for it, let alone the energy required to charge a battery With an ever diminishing range !
Then there’s the restrictive logistical issue of recharging points, which is a huge issue and failing right now. How many million miles of additional heavy duty copper cable will be required world wide ?
Best Buy some shares in EDF and stockpile fossil fuel

 

[Perfectos]

I just googled how many cars are there in the U.K. 2019

Answer 38.4 million !

How many charging points are planned to cope with this it would need to be approximately double, just to make it remotely practical

In comparison, The U.K. has approximately 8500 fuel filling stations !

You don’t have a fuel filling station attached to your house to place of work, the battery tech logistics is not going to work unless

A) range increases 10 fold of current range at new to allow for diverse charging opportunities
B) massive investment in infrastructure world wide involving digging up roads to install charging points away from the domestic setting
C) electricity supplies become renewable 100%
D) full charge times are reduced to minutes rather than hours

E) traffic lights at round abouts are scrapped

 

[johnyboy]

So you don't believe we even need to change? or you just are scared of the scale of change needed? Just clarrifying

I haven't even got kids but I have solar, a home battery, formerly a model s and soon a model 3... some things will have to change, ICE will go the way of the horse and be a leisure pursuit.
Is the grid ready? they say yes, with the caveat that we can schedule charging. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/electric-vehicle-car-infrastructure-charging-point
Is the infrastructure and battery tech there? not for all manufacutrers - Tesla is far and away the leader. There are more points now than stations (not pumps of course ) but progress is real https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...-public-charge-points-petrol-stations-UK.html
A) Range for Tesla does not have to increase but the ICE produers need to
B) Quite right too - same would be true of Hydrogen or any alternative, but the fact is I have charged less than 2% of my energy requirements "out of home"
C) yup, lets try and store some of that solar and wind in the cars and also have the option to move it back to the grid, allowing every vehicle to have an income from selling units back?
d)Already there with the leaders.... waiting on the ICE producers to catch up
E) I dont understand - EVs don't have to be autonomous, and in fact a little traffic helps the range slightly with regenerative braking powering the battery rather than using the brakes, and they don't burn fuel and emit fumes at the roundabout or lights waiting their turn

 

[WelshGas]

Buy a Model 3

No. Want a pure town car.

 

[WelshGas]

Surely you don't mean that!? If battery technology stalls, fossil fuels are likely to be depleted sooner, and not "be around a lot longer".

I do mean that. 2040 for only electric vehicles is a pipe dream.

 

[Digger]

A lot is written but the facts are somewhat embellished. One other thing to consider is when the taxation from fuel duty is down road pricing per mile will be a reality. Taxation matters more than the right to roam.

 

[Amarillo]

I do mean that. 2040 for only electric vehicles is a pipe dream.

You are just like the BBC - mis-reporting the "dream" in a headline statement.

Under the plans, only new petrol and diesel cars would be banned from 2040.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40723581

I think it is eminently feasible.

 

[Perfectos]

Hi JohnBoy
change indeed is required, but change that works to solve the issue of fossil fuel depletion and the damage it does to the environment, with a well laid out vision, not an arbitrary timescale to meet because some political reason.

Change can be a good thing when we’ll thought out. Computers are a success story which has taken decades to develop.
Battery tech needs to develop massively to make a statement such as banning a particular fuel type in favour of one that is not developed sufficiently to provide a clear and precise benefit.
I’m not sure the current plan can claim that ?

I am sure the Romans thought lead pipes to deliver water to homes was progress.

Asbestos widely used until the 80’s, heralded as a super product, innocuous at the time to be used in a Miriad of products from personal to building products, milatry hardware, . banned in 1980,s in U.K. &USA but still remains in many environments today as a consequence of its prolific action and the powers that be not understanding the full potential issues.

Change inevitably is driven by big business chasing dollar, which is at odds with the end game we are being sold today. Big business does not care about the environment issues, it is constrained only by the rules of the game, which haven’t been laid down yet.
Take for example the latest hot issue, plastic, until big business wants to change people are powerless to reduce the use of plastic. Can you live without plastic today ?
Why are manufacturers allowed to create items that further pollute in the name of progress. The route of electric cars has this exact potential.
The general public is being sold an ideal, without an ideal solution being available.

Show me a well laid out plan that is cohesive and comprehensive through the world ?

Personal transport has come a long way in a short period of time and has offered life changing capabilities, a whole sale move to electric power, before ALL limiting factors are fully and sufficiently resolved could be life changing for the wrong reasons,
Earths resources will be used indiscriminately, resources that cannot be replaced, sound familiar to the situation we are in now with the demon fossil fuel?

We cant even invent a battery to run a small device without charging and life issue, let alone run construction, plant machinery HGV etc .
What do we turn to when electricity supplies fail ?
Change is indeed needed to avoid a disaster and u turn.

I love the fact the those that have been brain washed into the blind leap of faith, based on current data and the demonising of fossil fuel without a comprehensive and cohesive plan, are more than happy to become experts in a field they knew nothing about two years ago.

Of course China and India will only join the party when the tech has been invented and is cheap enough for them to emulate and use it for their own benefit and financial reward.

bring on the change that will make the dream reality and improve the world.
To achieve the goal of 2040, the world, needs some serious progress and infrastructure updates and the ability to co operate internationally.
Progress is not a 300 mile range for an inordinate overall energy input ( manufacturing resources included)
lets hope man kind is up to the challenge, without doing further irreversible damage in the name of progress, depleting earths resources further.

 

[Perfectos]

You are just like the BBC - mis-reporting the "dream" in a headline statement.

Under the plans, only new petrol and diesel cars would be banned from 2040.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40723581

I think it is eminently feasible.

Let’s hope so Tom, time will tell, humanity does not have a good environmental record

 

[WelshGas]

You are just like the BBC - mis-reporting the "dream" in a headline statement.

Under the plans, only new petrol and diesel cars would be banned from 2040.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40723581

I think it is eminently feasible.

And even a large company like Mercedes cannot sort out Batteries for a town car with a range of 70 miles, in 2019. A niche market which bears no relation at all to a family car or delivery van, and how many of those will be required in 2040 with dwindling resources of the materials needed to make said Batteries. Probably can be done with massive investment , research, exploration for new deposits of the rare materials along with the relevant processing facilities required. You, yourself have already stated that electric vehicles do not make economic sense at present and possibly even less so in the future as electricity gets taxed to compensate for the loss of tax revenue from fossil fuels. The general population will get stuffed, as usual, and the 3rd world and emerging economies will just carry on as usual striving to attain the same standard of living as we have using fossil fuels as their power source and ignoring the climate effects, leaving that to the West to worry about.
Electric vehicles will never be for the masses, too expensive and the batteries needing replacement at least once if not more often during the vehicle lifespan.
On the Smart the battery will need replacement at 60,000 miles whereas a petrol engine can easily exceed that, and who pays for that at £7k a time.
Electric Vehicles are not for the masses, without some major changes in lifestyle or a miracle invention in battery technology

 

[Amarillo]

And even a large company like Mercedes cannot sort out Batteries for a town car with a range of 70 miles, in 2019. A niche market which bears no relation at all to a family car or delivery van, and how many of those will be required in 2040 with dwindling resources of the materials needed to make said Batteries. Probably can be done with massive investment , research, exploration for new deposits of the rare materials along with the relevant processing facilities required. You, yourself have already stated that electric vehicles do not make economic sense at present and possibly even less so in the future as electricity gets taxed to compensate for the loss of tax revenue from fossil fuels. The general population will get stuffed, as usual, and the 3rd world and emerging economies will just carry on as usual striving to attain the same standard of living as we have using fossil fuels as their power source and ignoring the climate effects, leaving that to the West to worry about.
Electric vehicles will never be for the masses, too expensive and the batteries needing replacement at least once if not more often during the vehicle lifespan.
On the Smart the battery will need replacement at 60,000 miles whereas a petrol engine can easily exceed that, and who pays for that at £7k a time.
Electric Vehicles are not for the masses, without some major changes in lifestyle or a miracle invention in battery technology

“Eminently feasible” was a deliberately ambiguous term. We may know more about its meaning on Hallowe’en.

 

[Perfectos]

China has been buying up large swathes of world resources for decades, it now owns massive mineral reserves and other resources in many many countries around the world.the resources will be required by the world sometime in future, however the country of origin no longer own that resource.
China will not simply hand that back the resource to the country or world to use as we see fit, it will come at a price, and will be exploited just when the resource is needed and it most valuable, despite the damage it may do to the environment locally and globally.

 

[Perfectos]

And even a large company like Mercedes cannot sort out Batteries for a town car with a range of 70 miles, in 2019. A niche market which bears no relation at all to a family car or delivery van, and how many of those will be required in 2040 with dwindling resources of the materials needed to make said Batteries. Probably can be done with massive investment , research, exploration for new deposits of the rare materials along with the relevant processing facilities required. You, yourself have already stated that electric vehicles do not make economic sense at present and possibly even less so in the future as electricity gets taxed to compensate for the loss of tax revenue from fossil fuels. The general population will get stuffed, as usual, and the 3rd world and emerging economies will just carry on as usual striving to attain the same standard of living as we have using fossil fuels as their power source and ignoring the climate effects, leaving that to the West to worry about.
Electric vehicles will never be for the masses, too expensive and the batteries needing replacement at least once if not more often during the vehicle lifespan.
On the Smart the battery will need replacement at 60,000 miles whereas a petrol engine can easily exceed that, and who pays for that at £7k a time.
Electric Vehicles are not for the masses, without some major changes in lifestyle or a miracle invention in battery technology

Progress is incremental and requires lots of time to develop. Look at computers which were born, as we know them today, from the space race, as so many products we use today 1950,s / 60,s tech ideas made possible in the modern age with a wide development of all fields, requiring step changes to achieve recognised progress that is useable.
The real step changes were invented out of left field by previously unknown individuals who are now billionaires not establish conglomerates.

 

[johnyboy]

Why are you focussed on the old guard manufacturers - Tesla, Dyson, Apple will be the leaders in new transportation - Tesla has already proven to be years ahead in battery and motor development let alone having the foresight for the charging infrastructure. As for battery tech what you say about replacmenet may be true for those old guard, but teslas are out there with hundreds (plural) of thousands of miles on them, with very little range degredation, and not just in California, in Finland with weather extremes.

Technology shifts are constantly missed by old guard companies who have are profiting from the status quo, do we need to mention Kodak and Nokia? So "something coming out of left field" is something we can agree on, I am just thinking you need to see tesla as slightly left field, and I am not a conspiracy theorist but I do see the disproportional coverage of anythign approaching "failure" in the press and wonder how much "big oil" and the ICE manufacturers are worried.

 

[Perfectos]

Why are you focussed on the old guard manufacturers - Tesla, Dyson, Apple will be the leaders in new transportation - Tesla has already proven to be years ahead in battery and motor development let alone having the foresight for the charging infrastructure. As for battery tech what you say about replacmenet may be true for those old guard, but teslas are out there with hundreds (plural) of thousands of miles on them, with very little range degredation, and not just in California, in Finland with weather extremes.

Technology shifts are constantly missed by old guard companies who have are profiting from the status quo, do we need to mention Kodak and Nokia? So "something coming out of left field" is something we can agree on, I am just thinking you need to see tesla as slightly left field, and I am not a conspiracy theorist but I do see the disproportional coverage of anythign approaching "failure" in the press and wonder how much "big oil" and the ICE manufacturers are worried.

You may be right regarding Tesla, Dyson and apple, time will tell.
Apple, Dyson and Tesla, May become the old guard sooner than you think.

Mine and others opinion are as valid as yours, because it is opinion.

I presume you intend to sell your Old Polluting California as soon as possible ?
and get a Tesla if you feel that the use of your existing choice of vehicle is more damaging than the new tech, particularly if you feel that the new tech is not damaging the environment in any way?

The facts remain the tech that we are being presented as the saviour of our planet and will bring their own set of horrendous environmental problems, simply moving the goal posts away from one environmental disaster to another is not a solution to a world wide issue.

Eyes wide open.

 

[willwander]

So many negative vibes

BTW
The I.D.Buzz is on the VW stand at Goodwood this weekend

 

[Amarillo]

We've just been to look at the Skoda Citigo as a second car - short urban trips only. You can no longer order from the factory - it's going all electric and the only Citigos available are stock vehicles.

 

[Perfectos]

I can see people having to paying a premium for certain vehicles very soon if the demand outstrips the available supply.

 

[RoB5urf]

We've just been to look at the Skoda Citigo as a second car - short urban trips only. You can no longer order from the factory - it's going all electric and the only Citigos available are stock vehicles.

Funny, we were looking at a Renault Zoe as a second car and ended up buying a Citigo. Made a lot more sense to me.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[Amarillo]

Funny, we were looking at a Renault Zoe as a second car and ended up buying a Citigo. Made a lot more sense to me.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

From £7240 OTR (including £1650 deposit contribution).

I love the basic of basic design.

 

[johnyboy]

I have a tesla... California is very much a leisure/passtime option... like a horse

 

[Beeechke1]

For most of my working life I have completed my daily commute in a large family 5 seat car, mostly supplied by my employer, with distances between 45 and 90 miles each way. During those commutes as you inch along our congested road systems its noticeably that the large majority of other vehicles have only one occupant. I have worked for companies that have supported car share schemes but the result has always been very low take up. Why? Irrespective of what energy source powers our vehicles in future what needs to change above all else is our attitudes to vehicle usage especially for routine commuting and single occupancy.

Do I have the solution? No. Am I aware many people live and commute in areas without public transport options? Yes of course. Will I continue to cover many 1000's of miles in my Cali? yes hopefully. Lets hope there are some much cleverer and young brains than mine out there working on the solutions.