The New All electric California due in Autumn 2019. What are you thoughts?

[Perfectos]

Really? And what exactly is your point? I have been happy to support and join this brilliant forum but will be disappointed if it turns political. I hope this is a temporary aberration.

My point is batteries use massive amounts of resources, often taken from third world countries ! (A’s has been said by others) true or not ?
In their current format, I do not believe, batteries are viable or indeed green solution , let alone the electricity needed to power them and future generations?

It was not so long ago that we were told that the world needed to cut down on electrical consumption, for “green reasons” this seems to have been totally forgotten. what will power the increased demand for electricity to go “green” do to the environment?
we are being fed the next political ( yes political) load of BS ?

If you care to read this thread from front to back you will see that some people are actually trying to debate the issue and out valid points on both sides.

I’m sorry you seem to be offend by the irony of the picture, but the fact is it’s the truth of the current situation?

We here can have very little effect on the various factors that will play out.
My stance is not political, it’s merely my observation of the current situation.
I would be interested to have your input, rather than scorn ?
The problem is real, the solution has not yet been found !
As it’s seems is your sense of humour. That in part is some of the issue, people have forgotten what satire is ?
You choose to drive, you choose to own a California, I presume you live in a house and use electric , shop at supermarkets etc think about it ?
We’re all part of the problem that needs to be resolved, comments like yours don’t help progression, they just divert away from the real situation and the truth of the matter ? Or are you saying that you are not aware of the damage and potential damage the increase move to electrical / battery technologies are creating ?
Not at all political just a statement to be debated by open minded individuals?
Incidentally I deliberately choose to stay clear of the political debates on other threads, so I think you miss the mark with your original comment.
What ever happened to free speech ? Or is it only free speech that you like that you want to hear / read ?

 

[RodCouncil]

After 12 months of use, still getting that range...?
I doubt it. I can only tell you how bad my EV work van is after 18months.

Now you guys want a 2.5t van with the aerodynamics of a brick to have any kind of decent range...?
Sorry, step into the real world. Batteries are not the answer here...

Tesla, Renault and others are recycling them for home storage, also Tesla have data showing their 2012 model S are still in the high 90s for charge retention, it depends on how many cycles you’ve charged not years of use.

Same story on manufacturing too, battery chemistry is massively different from even 5 years ago.

The van aero is definitely a big factor but maybe have a look at some of the documentaries on this and read up on the progress being made, batteries might not solve everyone’s issues, but it’s progressing well.

You’re going to feel the real world in a few years time when diesel camper vans will be the pursuit of the affluent or those who don’t mind paying the huge VED sums and annual increases in fuel duty.

 

[Amarillo]

I am looking forward to everybody having electric vehicles because then I can drive with less traffic because the majority of them will be on charge

Cars are currently unused 95% of the time.

 

[Perfectos]

Vehicles will be taxed regardless of what power is used to propel them.
China has removed many of the benefits for owing an electric vehicle, London is set to follow suit.
The reality is we have become used to the luxury of getting in the car for the shortest our journeys, a car used to be a luxury, now everyone has them !
Look at a housing estate for example 40 years ago only one parking space was considered adequate, how many households only have one car ?

 

[RodCouncil]

Most sensible people are moving away from ownership and making shorter non essential trips under their own steam or using payg schemes like Zipcar.

The outcome and experience play a bigger role in my life than having the depreciating metal sat on the driveway, but it’s horses for courses as we cycle or take the tunnelbana to work and drop our son off by walking all of 300m to his nursery, so a car really is a luxury to us.

 

[mountainman]

My point is batteries use massive amounts of resources, often taken from third world countries ! (A’s has been said by others) true or not ?
In their current format, I do not believe, batteries are viable or indeed green solution , let alone the electricity needed to power them and future generations?

It was not so long ago that we were told that the world needed to cut down on electrical consumption, for “green reasons” this seems to have been totally forgotten. what will power the increased demand for electricity to go “green” do to the environment?
we are being fed the next political ( yes political) load of BS ?

If you care to read this thread from front to back you will see that some people are actually trying to debate the issue and out valid points on both sides.

I’m sorry you seem to be offend by the irony of the picture, but the fact is it’s the truth of the current situation?

We here can have very little effect on the various factors that will play out.
My stance is not political, it’s merely my observation of the current situation.
I would be interested to have your input, rather than scorn ?
The problem is real, the solution has not yet been found !
As it’s seems is your sense of humour. That in part is some of the issue, people have forgotten what satire is ?
You choose to drive, you choose to own a California, I presume you live in a house and use electric , shop at supermarkets etc think about it ?
We’re all part of the problem that needs to be resolved, comments like yours don’t help progression, they just divert away from the real situation and the truth of the matter ? Or are you saying that you are not aware of the damage and potential damage the increase move to electrical / battery technologies are creating ?
Not at all political just a statement to be debated by open minded individuals?
Incidentally I deliberately choose to stay clear of the political debates on other threads, so I think you miss the mark with your original comment.
What ever happened to free speech ? Or is it only free speech that you like that you want to hear / read ?

 

[mountainman]

I have no problem with the environmental debate, although I'd choose to have it elsewhere. I see nothing to disagree with in your last post, so I suspect we agree on many of these things. Greta Tunberg is a political figure who admits and understands the west's and her own hypocrisy in all this. I simply wondered what the point of the image was, other than to invite political comment. Anyway, it seems it is only me that has reacted to this, so perhaps it's just me. The rest of the thread seems to be ticking along quite nicely. So I say we draw a line under it

 

[Amarillo]

how many households only have one car ?

According to TfL, 40% of London households have only one car.

46% have no car, suggesting 14% have two or more.

 

[Whistler]

According to TfL, 40% of London households have only one car.

46% have no car, suggesting 14% have two or more.

That's London with its very high population density and accompanying public transport which make that lifestyle possible.

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[Amarillo]

That's London with its very high population density and accompanying public transport which make that lifestyle possible.

@Perfectos referred to London in his post and was talking about car use for the shortest of journeys. 46% of London households appear to manage perfectly well without a car at all.

But you are right - public transport in London is remarkably good most of the time. And if we are to wean more people off the internal combustion engine, public transport in other areas of the country need to improve. As well as safe walking and cycling routes.

 

[Perfectos]

According to TfL, 40% of London households have only one car.

46% have no car, suggesting 14% have two or more.

Thanks Amarillo for the London stats in response to my question.

It would be intresting to see the stats progressively as they move away from a decent alternative infrastructure (I.e outside large towns / cities) I bet vehicle ownership is directly proportional to location and availability to realistic opportunities for public transport.

I would bet Middle England / Europe has a disproportionate car ownership the further away from public transport access the subject is ?

 

[Amarillo]

Thanks Amarillo for the London stats in response to my question.

It would be intresting to see the stats progressively as they move away from a decent alternative infrastructure (I.e outside large towns / cities) I bet vehicle ownership is directly proportional to location and availability to realistic opportunities for public transport.

I would bet Middle England / Europe has a disproportionate car ownership the further away from public transport access the subject is ?

78% of all UK households have one or more cars.

Household income is a significant factor in car ownership with 65% in the lowest 10% of incomes having no car.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/expenditure/datasets/percentageofhouseholdswithcarsbyincomegrouptenureandhouseholdcompositionuktablea47/financialyearending2018/a47final201718.xls

 

[B J G]

Reading road tests today in the local library in What Car of a: Jaguar I pace, a Tesla model 3 and a Kia E Niro, remarkable progress to workable nearly affordable cars in a relatively short time. We are living in a rapidly changing world that will surprise us all no doubt.

Have you seen the TV report on a Leeds Owner of a Jaguar i Pace who went on holiday to Cornwall and took a full day each way due to incompatible charging points and the need to travel up to 20 miles off route to find a point before running out of charge. He reluctantly changed back to a Fossil powered vehicle (at a financial loss) due to the inability to travel anywhere other than local without the time and detailed route planing required. A to B wasn't possible by the fasted route. No issue with the actual vehicle just no standard charging infrastructure.

 

[Ksar-el-kebir]

So VW are releasing an all electric powered version of the T6.1 including a California version in Autumn 2019.

It states a range of upto 300 miles, but how do you all feel about a 300 mile range? Is that enough? Its the charging that worries me?
View attachment 41664

Quote from Top Gear
"Alongside a bunch of 2.0 TDI diesels (topping out at 196bhp) there’s now a fully electric version, developed with the help of tuning and motorsport specialists ABT and possessing 110bhp. With the option of a humongous 77.6kWh battery, it can travel almost 300 miles on a charge. Though we suspect that’ll fall depending on how you drive it and how heavily you load it"

Not many charging points in the Sahara!

 

[johnyboy]

pretty huge nuclear power plant 150M up though
Loving my Model 3 BTW

 

[bluerallye]

The low 110 bhp (torque figure available?) is as worrying as the 'range'.

Owning a T4 2.5 AAF pushing out similar bhp it can just about cope when fully loaded....I expect this to be similar to the unloaded weights of a BEV T6 so......

Owning a Renault ZOE* pushing out similar bhp, it's great off the mark but fizzles out around 65-70 and range m/kwh really suffers above this. Its probably half the VWs weight too at around 1400kg. I can probably get 100 miles range in the summer (with about 10 miles of that coming through re-gen, so 90 real miles), winter is about 20% less. I reckon the T6 Cali useable range would be about 230 miles tops IME.

Battery Life: Capacity on the ZOE is still good at 98% having covered 30K miles. I tend to trickle charge overnight (+ 2.5KW) from the 13A socket at home with a granny cable. The local taxi fleet who run Leafs and constantly rapid charge (>20KW) seem to have comparatively lower battery capacities as a result. You'd need accelerated (>7KW) charging really to make the van useable as a daily IMO.

ZOE is a 400V system which is OK for the size / type of car without heating issues. I expect VW would have to look at 800V or 1000V in reality to get any useable performance / reliability.

Standard 10A EHU on a campsite is going to take you around 32+ hours from about 5% - 95% by my reckoning so OK for a weekend away.

*also own a ICE TD vehicle for the normal stuff but the ZOE works amazingly well for the weekly school run / commutes.

 

[RodCouncil]

Super interesting post.

Renault have reacted well, new Zoe is 52kw from 22, runs DCS charging at 50kw so doubled it’s capacity and charging in 2 years, but I still feel the DCS speed should be better.

As for charging, campsites are not where that will be happening, you have to hope more ionity stations open up, it’s expanding at a decent rate in Scandinavia, also home charging in Sweden is 11kwh as standard so having a bigger battery as a daily is more plausible

 

[Whistler]

Super interesting post.

As for charging, campsites are not where that will be happening, you have to hope more ionity stations open up, it’s expanding at a decent rate in Scandinavia, also home charging in Sweden is 11kwh as standard so having a bigger battery as a daily is more plausible

Agree you won't be charging on a campsite. Don't see campsite owners taking too kindly to people trying to charge their cars on the hook-up.

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[bluerallye]

Agree you won't be charging on a campsite. Don't see campsite owners taking too kindly to people trying to charge their cars on the hook-up.

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Cant see why they'd get upset? If your pitch is allocated with EHU then what's the difference in drawing allocated (and usually paid for) power to charge a traction battery over drawing power to run a heater, tv, kettle etc? 6A wouldn't work but 10A would be OK. The daily standing charge for EHU would more than cover what the vehicle would draw to charge....assuming you aren't filling up from empty everyday!

Agree it's not really practical but that's not the argument.

 

[Whistler]

Cant see why they'd get upset? If your pitch is allocated with EHU then what's the difference in drawing allocated (and usually paid for) power to charge a traction battery over drawing power to run a heater, tv, kettle etc? 6A wouldn't work but 10A would be OK. The daily standing charge for EHU would more than cover what the vehicle would draw to charge....assuming you aren't filling up from empty everyday!

Agree it's not really practical but that's not the argument.

It would be both the cost a practicality of charging electric vehicles that campsites would object to and I apply this to cars and campers.

Most people will use their EHU intermittently, boil a kettle, run a toaster, trickle charge some leisure batteries. Some people may run a small fan heater. When charging an electric vehicle it will be demanding close to the 10A limit all the time. I'm not an electrician but I suspect the average campsite power distribution is not designed for several cars to be charging at the same time. Expensive overhaul of their electrics required. Don't think campsite owners will accept that.

On the cost side a kWh costs between 11 and 16pence. A small car Citreon C-zero battery is 16 kWh so will cost £1.76 to £1.96 to charge. That may seem to be ok but what sort of batteries will an estate or the fabled electric California have?



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[Amarillo]

It would be both the cost a practicality of charging electric vehicles that campsites would object to and I apply this to cars and campers.

Most people will use their EHU intermittently, boil a kettle, run a toaster, trickle charge some leisure batteries. Some people may run a small fan heater. When charging an electric vehicle it will be demanding close to the 10A limit all the time. I'm not an electrician but I suspect the average campsite power distribution is not designed for several cars to be charging at the same time. Expensive overhaul of their electrics required. Don't think campsite owners will accept that.

I think that campsites are the ideal place to recharge motor vehicles. They already have the basic infrastructure in place and upgrading the electrics would be relatively cheap and easy. Of course, campsite owners would need to charge for a recharge, but if the cost price for recharging a 100 kWh battery is £16, charging a camper £32 would yield a healthy £16 gross. Multiply by 20 campers on the same pitch in a season and you have a pretax profit of £320. 50 pitches and you get a healthy £16,000.

 

[Nick Stubbs]

Lifted from one of the other threads..

"Talking to the staff, we learned that VW have no plans for an electric long haul California in the coming years. It will be diesel in the next years on the Cali front.
Although VW studied hydrogen engines intensively, they think this will not be a viable alternative in the short term for the company (and for the customers), mainly because of lack of infrastructure.
Sales of new Calis are faltering since dieselgate, we heard. Consumers are confused and uncertain, because of all the alarming news and because governments in Europe still do not have a clear common policy on Co2, nitrogen and small particulate matter. Buyers are deterred by the continuously changing emission standards, e.g. will diesel 6D-temp still be allowed after 2020?"

 

[Sunstoner]

Look at a housing estate for example 40 years ago only one parking space was considered adequate, how many households only have one car ?

Scarily, we recently visited our old house which we moved out of only 10 years ago which was on a new housing development and at the time most houses had 2 cars with the odd one parked out front. However the roads were littered with cars half parked on/off road. It was quite the shock.

Times have changed man!

 

[bluerallye]

It would be both the cost a practicality of charging electric vehicles that campsites would object to and I apply this to cars and campers.

Most people will use their EHU intermittently, boil a kettle, run a toaster, trickle charge some leisure batteries. Some people may run a small fan heater. When charging an electric vehicle it will be demanding close to the 10A limit all the time. I'm not an electrician but I suspect the average campsite power distribution is not designed for several cars to be charging at the same time. Expensive overhaul of their electrics required. Don't think campsite owners will accept that.

On the cost side a kWh costs between 11 and 16pence. A small car Citreon C-zero battery is 16 kWh so will cost £1.76 to £1.96 to charge. That may seem to be ok but what sort of batteries will an estate or the fabled electric California have?



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About 75-80KW if rumours are to be believed.

Agree the infrastructure would need consideration if we all went 100% electric and descended on them at the same time.... but we all seem to agree this isn't the case so I wouldn't expect a massive hike in infrastructure here. Campsite I was at over HT last week had just invested £3k in a coffee machine. This is roughly equivalent to 6 dedicated EV points under OLEV business initiatives. It [coffee machine] draws customers and makes them a profit. I personally wouldn't object to an EV charging premium on top of my EHU charge if it was reasonable.

Don't forget though

- EVs are not all BEVs, there are plenty of PHEVs tugging caravans about and I see two of these big Mitsu 4x4 PHEVs plugged in to one of my local campsites without objection.....or they haven't been caught yet...

- Campsites still allow tents. PHEVs and small BEVs are more than adequate for this. I'd happily take our EV Renault over the ICE Honda for a weekends tenting if EV charging was available at the destination (mainly because I'm cheap, it's a much better drive than the Honda and most importantly it's more beer tokens available)

 

[Sunstoner]

Is there a concern that those of us buying Cali's now will be left with vehicles that arent worth a jot in 7-10 years time as the full throttle move to electric takes shape?

As a first time Cali buyer (not quite yet, plan is early next year) it has crossed my mind these past days.