VW California vs Conversions

[OooOooTheMonkey]

I’ve been giving a bit more thought on the impact of a T7/Multivan based California on T6 based used prices.

I own a PHEV family estate now. I’m not convinced of the use case of hybrids, beyond BIK tax relief for company cars. Which, given most hybrids cost upward of 25%, sometimes 50% more than the equivalent ICE is less valuable than at first glance.

More to the point, on any journey longer than ca 60 miles, the battery will be mostly flat, charging only on regen. Which means you are lugging around a redundant heavy battery & electric engine.

Theoretical MPG on my 330e is ~ 65MPG. However once running on ICE it’s ~ 25MPG.

PHEV works brilliantly for short local commutes < 25 miles. (It also works brilliantly for government net zero goals…)

It’s terrible on long distance journeys. Which is what most campervans do. I don’t intend to use a California to grab a pint of milk.

Re prices for T7/Multivan - my gut instinct is that given delivery will likely be at best Q2 2025, the economy will be stronger, rates will be stable or lower.

I guesstimate list price will start with an £80k+. Current nearly new/new run-out model Calis may look cheap with strong residuals.

All conjecture!

Actually PHEVs do not get a cheap BIK rate, only full EVs do, so PHEVs are very expensive as company cars. Full EVs are great for not just short but long journeys too and I agree wouldn’t work as a camper. PHEVs are the worst of both worlds IMO and also pointless in a camper.

 

[RosscoPCole74]

The reason we chose a Cali over a conversion was that it had the electric pop top. My wife struggled reaching the old pop top and that it looks so much better without carpet lining everywhere..

 

[WelshGas]

Actually PHEVs do not get a cheap BIK rate, only full EVs do, so PHEVs are very expensive as company cars. Full EVs are great for not just short but long journeys too and I agree wouldn’t work as a camper. PHEVs are the worst of both worlds IMO and also pointless in a camper.

If your campervan is only used for high days and holidays, as many are judging by the annual milage of many, then I totally agree, but mine is my everyday vehicle as well and with abysmal public transport a hybrid would suit me perfectly and allow me to continue my trips to Scandinavia and the rest of Europe. At 15 to 20,000 miles a year and no restrictions on where I can drive, at the moment, it will do me for the next 10+ years.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

Actually PHEVs do not get a cheap BIK rate, only full EVs do, so PHEVs are very expensive as company cars. Full EVs are great for not just short but long journeys too and I agree wouldn’t work as a camper. PHEVs are the worst of both worlds IMO and also pointless in a camper.

PHEVS do get a reduced discount rate, based on their quoted range on EV.

The BIK on my 330e is 11%. Full EVs get a deeper discount. But that is reducing.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

PHEVS do get a reduced discount rate, based on their quoted range on EV.

The BIK on my 330e is 11%. Full EVs get a deeper discount. But that is reducing.

I wouldn’t really describe that as cheap though. For EVs it’s 2%!

 

[JuanVecino2023]

I wouldn’t really describe that as cheap though. For EVs it’s 2%!

It’s cheaper than the equivalent ICE?

Vehicle CO2 emissions	BiK rate (Electric, Petrol, RDE2 Diesel)
2023-24	2024-25	2025-26
0 g/km	2%	2%	3%
1-50 g/km (electric range >130 miles)	2%	2%	3%
1-50 g/km (electric range 70-129 miles)	5%	5%	6%
1-50 g/km (electric range 40-69 miles)	8%	8%	9%
1-50 g/km (electric range 30-39 miles)	12%	12%	13%
1-50 g/km (electric range <30 miles)	14%	14%	15%
51-54 g/km	15%	15%	16%
55-59 g/km	16%	16%	17%
60-64 g/km	17%	17%	18%
65-69 g/km	18%	18%	19%
70-74 g/km	19%	19%	20%
75-79 g/km	20%	20%	21%
80-84 g/km	21%	21%	22%
85-89 g/km	22%	22%	23%
90-94 g/km	23%	23%	24%
95-99 g/km	24%	24%	25%
100-104 g/km	25%	25%	26%
105-109 g/km	26%	26%	27%
110-114 g/km	27%	27%	28%
115-119 g/km	28%	28%	29%
120-124 g/km	29%	29%	30%
125-129 g/km	30%	30%	31%
130-134 g/km	31%	31%	32%
135-139 g/km	32%	32%	33%
140-144 g/km	32%	33%	34%
145-149 g/km	34%	34%	35%
150-154 g/km	35%	35%	36%
155-159 g/km	36%	36%	37%
160-164 g/km	37%	37%	37%
165-169 g/km	37%	37%	37%
>170	37%	37%	37%

 

[JollyGoodShow]

I’ve been giving a bit more thought on the impact of a T7/Multivan based California on T6 based used prices.

I own a PHEV family estate now. I’m not convinced of the use case of hybrids, beyond BIK tax relief for company cars. Which, given most hybrids cost upward of 25%, sometimes 50% more than the equivalent ICE is less valuable than at first glance.

More to the point, on any journey longer than ca 60 miles, the battery will be mostly flat, charging only on regen. Which means you are lugging around a redundant heavy battery & electric engine.

Theoretical MPG on my 330e is ~ 65MPG. However once running on ICE it’s ~ 25MPG.

PHEV works brilliantly for short local commutes < 25 miles. (It also works brilliantly for government net zero goals…)

It’s terrible on long distance journeys. Which is what most campervans do. I don’t intend to use a California to grab a pint of milk.

Re prices for T7/Multivan - my gut instinct is that given delivery will likely be at best Q2 2025, the economy will be stronger, rates will be stable or lower.

I guesstimate list price will start with an £80k+. Current nearly new/new run-out model Calis may look cheap with strong residuals.

All conjecture!

I liked this analysis. I too think the Multivan will be a higher price point than the outgoing model. Initially supply will be tight and discounts lower, so I think the gap between T7 and T6 will be a combination of today’s discounts and the future vehicle’s higher price point. I’m hopeful for low depreciation on the last generation of Transporter-based campers.

Off topic, but I have a full EV as a company car, and when I do the sums to work out an equivalent mpg, it’s not amazing. The calculation is cost of electricity per mile driven converted to how many gallons of fossil fuel that would buy. It works out as equivalent to 66mpg. That’s based on 34p/kWh electricity and £1.6/litre diesel. I know there are tariffs lower than that available but it’s an interesting indicator. That electricity comes partly from gas, but when I track back the carbon economics, the EV is massively better in CO2e than an ICE, even when the electricity is generated from natural gas.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

I liked this analysis. I too think the Multivan will be a higher price point than the outgoing model. Initially supply will be tight and discounts lower, so I think the gap between T7 and T6 will be a combination of today’s discounts and the future vehicle’s higher price point. I’m hopeful for low depreciation on the last generation of Transporter-based campers.

Off topic, but I have a full EV as a company car, and when I do the sums to work out an equivalent mpg, it’s not amazing. The calculation is cost of electricity per mile driven converted to how many gallons of fossil fuel that would buy. It works out as equivalent to 66mpg. That’s based on 34p/kWh electricity and £1.6/litre diesel. I know there are tariffs lower than that available but it’s an interesting indicator. That electricity comes partly from gas, but when I track back the carbon economics, the EV is massively better in CO2e than an ICE, even when the electricity is generated from natural gas.

I went for PHEV as a middle ground due to infrastructure and range limitations when I was ordering my last work car. I wasn’t blown away by the offerings and didn’t want a Tesla.

If I was making the same decision today, having dipped my toe in the EV water, I would probably order an i4. Closest EV I’ve driven to a ‘proper’ car. I don’t love the aesthetics, but it works as a family wagon.

Given lukewarm reaction to the ID Buzz (and limited current range), it will be interesting to see how l conversions sell when the LWB is launched next year. And if/when a California version is announced.

 

[vmaxkiddy]

Actually PHEVs do not get a cheap BIK rate, only full EVs do, so PHEVs are very expensive as company cars. Full EVs are great for not just short but long journeys too and I agree wouldn’t work as a camper. PHEVs are the worst of both worlds IMO and also pointless in a camper.

I agree, PHEV are the worst of both worlds. They’re heavier than pure ICE vehicles, servicing still involves cam belts, oil changes etc. Battery range is woeful on most of them, I’ve collected and delivered lease PHEV’s that only manage 15-60 miles on their batteries, although to be fair most have never been plugged in during the lease period anyway, vehicle only got for the BIK tax fiddle. I collected one recently that the owner had used on battery only during the last few days of the lease as they wanted to use all the petrol in the tank and not top it up, the battery was knackered (down to 2%) and needed replacing. No idea how much that cost them.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

I agree, PHEV are the worst of both worlds. They’re heavier than pure ICE vehicles, servicing still involves cam belts, oil changes etc. Battery range is woeful on most of them, I’ve collected and delivered lease PHEV’s that only manage 15-60 miles on their batteries, although to be fair most have never been plugged in during the lease period anyway, vehicle only got for the BIK tax fiddle. I collected one recently that the owner had used on battery only during the last few days of the lease as they wanted to use all the petrol in the tank and not top it up, the battery was knackered (down to 2%) and needed replacing. No idea how much that cost them.

Batteries cost between £15-25k often.

It’s why John Lewis have stopped insuring EV altogether.

My thoughts. EV is Betamax. It’s a bridge to another tech future. Maybe hydrogen, if the infrastructure can be sorted.

I’ve done ca 30k miles in my PHEV, 45% is electric looking at the onboard computer. Much more than I thought.

PHEV works in theory if your commute is < 20 miles and you can charge at work.

Most of my mates with PHEV never charge them, which seems daft to me. You are giving up the tax break in spending masses on fuel at ca 25MPG.

When I went to look at a California and sourcing some Transporters for my business, the salesman was driving a Mulitvan as his company car. 10k miles, never charged.

That’s got to be done thirsty driving!

 

[JollyGoodShow]

Batteries cost between £15-25k often.

It’s why John Lewis have stopped insuring EV altogether.

My thoughts. EV is Betamax. It’s a bridge to another tech future. Maybe hydrogen, if the infrastructure can be sorted.

I’ve done ca 30k miles in my PHEV, 45% is electric looking at the onboard computer. Much more than I thought.

PHEV works in theory if your commute is < 20 miles and you can charge at work.

Most of my mates with PHEV never charge them, which seems daft to me. You are giving up the tax break in spending masses on fuel at ca 25MPG.

When I went to look at a California and sourcing some Transporters for my business, the salesman was driving a Mulitvan as his company car. 10k miles, never charged.

That’s got to be done thirsty driving!

Interesting- thanks! It never occurred to me that people wouldn’t charge a plug in hybrid. I don’t have one, but if I did I reckon 90% of my journeys would be pure electric - going to the shops, station, eating out, etc. I have an EV and part of my reason for getting a Cali is that my diesel SUV gets so little use I have to faff about to prevent the battery dying. The Cali offers something different while still being a second car for the rare occasions it’s needed. For me, an EV and a Cali will, I hope, give lots of options.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

Interesting- thanks! It never occurred to me that people wouldn’t charge a plug in hybrid. I don’t have one, but if I did I reckon 90% of my journeys would be pure electric - going to the shops, station, eating out, etc. I have an EV and part of my reason for getting a Cali is that my diesel SUV gets so little use I have to faff about to prevent the battery dying. The Cali offers something different while still being a second car for the rare occasions it’s needed. For me, an EV and a Cali will, I hope, give lots of options.

Hi - this is exactly the combo I’m thinking of longer term. See if/how a Cali works for the family.

At the moment I run the PHEV for work & family trips. A Mk3 RAV4 diesel for tip rubs which I lend to the business as a spare van and a small hot hatch for my wife. There’s an older sports car lurking which barely sees the light of day.

I’m wondering in time whether the Cali with seats forward & a liner will replace the RAV4 as a utility/occasional tip run car.

And run a slightly larger hatch/small estate for a daily family car. I’m thinking either full EV or a self-charging Toyota might fit the bill.

Reduce the number of cars, expense and hassle.

As you say, flat batteries are a regular occurrence. A CTEK battery conditioner solves the headache on one.

 

[vmaxkiddy]

Batteries cost between £15-25k often.

It’s why John Lewis have stopped insuring EV altogether.

My thoughts. EV is Betamax. It’s a bridge to another tech future. Maybe hydrogen, if the infrastructure can be sorted.

I’ve done ca 30k miles in my PHEV, 45% is electric looking at the onboard computer. Much more than I thought.

PHEV works in theory if your commute is < 20 miles and you can charge at work.

Most of my mates with PHEV never charge them, which seems daft to me. You are giving up the tax break in spending masses on fuel at ca 25MPG.

When I went to look at a California and sourcing some Transporters for my business, the salesman was driving a Mulitvan as his company car. 10k miles, never charged.

That’s got to be done thirsty driving!

They probably don’t pay for the fuel, claim it back on expenses. Company pays.

 

[Lambeth Cali]

I liked this analysis. I too think the Multivan will be a higher price point than the outgoing model. Initially supply will be tight and discounts lower, so I think the gap between T7 and T6 will be a combination of today’s discounts and the future vehicle’s higher price point. I’m hopeful for low depreciation on the last generation of Transporter-based campers.

Off topic, but I have a full EV as a company car, and when I do the sums to work out an equivalent mpg, it’s not amazing. The calculation is cost of electricity per mile driven converted to how many gallons of fossil fuel that would buy. It works out as equivalent to 66mpg. That’s based on 34p/kWh electricity and £1.6/litre diesel. I know there are tariffs lower than that available but it’s an interesting indicator. That electricity comes partly from gas, but when I track back the carbon economics, the EV is massively better in CO2e than an ICE, even when the electricity is generated from natural gas.

So how much is pence per mile? What EV?

My commute is working out at 1/5 price of petrol on my Golf. With smart meter going in today the overnight electricity will 1/4 price (daytime the same as now) so my commute will become 1/20 cost.

That 66 mpg seems low.

 

[JollyGoodShow]

So how much is pence per mile? What EV?

My commute is working out at 1/5 price of petrol on my Golf. With smart meter going in today the overnight electricity will 1/4 price (daytime the same as now) so my commute will become 1/20 cost.

That 66 mpg seems low.

It does seem low, but I think it’s right. The car is a Volvo XC40 Twin Engine. The car says it has done 32.2 kWh/100 miles (it has an app with statistics). At 34p/kWh, that’s 10.95 pence per mile. I’ve done mixed mileage and haven’t driven with a ludicrously heavy right foot (but it is quite nippy).

At £1.60 per litre, or £7.27 per gallon, that’s equivalent to 66mpg.

Electricity prices are a lot higher than they were, and if I was still paying 15p/kWh, my mpg-equivalent would be a lot better.

 

[Lambeth Cali]

It does seem low, but I think it’s right. The car is a Volvo XC40 Twin Engine. The car says it has done 32.2 kWh/100 miles (it has an app with statistics). At 34p/kWh, that’s 10.95 pence per mile. I’ve done mixed mileage and haven’t driven with a ludicrously heavy right foot (but it is quite nippy).

At £1.60 per litre, or £7.27 per gallon, that’s equivalent to 66mpg.

Electricity prices are a lot higher than they were, and if I was still paying 15p/kWh, my mpg-equivalent would be a lot better.

That’s a hybrid I think yes? So that seems reasonable.
My back of an envelope calculation for my i3 is 100mpg but it’s a smaller lighter car and I am taking the electricity used from the BMW app when Harry’s garage says my ‘granny charger’ probably wastes 10% so possibly 90mpg is nearer.

Anyway I’ve probably hijacked the thread long enough. Get your van order in!

 

[JollyGoodShow]

That’s a hybrid I think yes? So that seems reasonable.
My back of an envelope calculation for my i3 is 100mpg but it’s a smaller lighter car and I am taking the electricity used from the BMW app when Harry’s garage says my ‘granny charger’ probably wastes 10% so possibly 90mpg is nearer.

Anyway I’ve probably hijacked the thread long enough. Get your van order in!

No, not a hybrid, an EV. Two electric motors, no internal combustion engines. (My order went in on 31/10/23… now the long wait.)

 

[lohr500]

Been through this dilemma over the past few days.
Wait for T7 camper or grab a T6.1 now while you can?
We wanted 4Motion and I've not been able to find out if the new T7 will have a 4Motion 4x4 option.
In the end we decided that a new Ocean 4Motion ticks all the boxes as a long term keeper.
So we have ordered one while we can.
It will do everything we want including towing trailers, coping with Yorkshire winters, providing everything we need for two of us to set off on adventures, etc, etc.
With the 5 year service and 0% finance deals on the table right now, it seemed like the time to press the button. We are fortunate though that we can stump up the 50% deposit.

 

[lohr500]

Just noticed on the UK configurator tool that most of the T6.1 versions, other than Cali, have moved to "Stock Only" status.

If anyone wants a new T6.1 Cali, they may need to move quickly.

Hope to hell that my order has hit the system!!

 

[JollyGoodShow]

Been through this dilemma over the past few days.
Wait for T7 camper or grab a T6.1 now while you can?
We wanted 4Motion and I've not been able to find out if the new T7 will have a 4Motion 4x4 option.
In the end we decided that a new Ocean 4Motion ticks all the boxes as a long term keeper.
So we have ordered one while we can.
It will do everything we want including towing trailers, coping with Yorkshire winters, providing everything we need for two of us to set off on adventures, etc, etc.
With the 5 year service and 0% finance deals on the table right now, it seemed like the time to press the button. We are fortunate though that we can stump up the 50% deposit.

Same logic as you, although we don’t think we need 4motion so ordered a bit earlier. The price now is compelling. The car we are selling will fund most of the 50% deposit, so the up front pain is quite low, but we feel very lucky to be able to afford a brand new one.

 

[JollyGoodShow]

Just noticed on the UK configurator tool that most of the T6.1 versions, other than Cali, have moved to "Stock Only" status.

If anyone wants a new T6.1 Cali, they may need to move quickly.

Hope to hell that my order has hit the system!!

The vans have been stock only for about six months now, I think.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

The vans have been stock only for about six months now, I think.

Yes this isn’t new on the website. Cali will go the same way at some point, but they’re obviously struggling to fill the order book, hence the deals that have been available lately. Can’t be much longer now though I wouldn’t think.

 

[Corradobrit]

they’re obviously struggling to fill the order book, hence the deals that have been available lately.

Hardly surprising with so many (everyone) affected by leaky bellows.

 

[lohr500]

Sorry, hadn't realised the vans had been "Stock Only" for a while.