What dream car would you choose on retirement (other than a Cali naturally)

[Velma's Dad]

The GT6 was a real fun car to drive, although like the Spitfire, in standard form it would treat you to its signature bunny-hop tuck-under if you hit a bump mid corner (worse on the Spit - I managed to roll mine that way) although sounds like you tuned yours out of that elementary fault, as did my friend.

Again I'd say the TR6 (/5/4A - all with IRS) and TR4 were different handling cars. The 6 does have some truck-like tendencies which is why I prefer the 4 with its good old cart springs and live axle which make it more precise than the later cars. People put ARBs on them but that just worsens the understeer, they turn in more crisply without and are actually pretty well balanced although snap oversteer is always on the menu.

 

[NorCal]

An interesting and I suspect all too frequent discovery by those that hanker after the car of their childhood dreams. The trouble is modern cars are now quiet, reliable and usually drive extremely well. They are generally a warm and comfortable place to sit whilst ticking off the miles and this is where the problem lies. The comparison between any small modern hatch and a classic sports car rarely stands up to scrutiny. Just about any boring modern box will start, steer, accelerate, handle and stop infinitely better than ones childhood pin up car. They also require minimal maintenance to keep them in fine fettle. However, compared with classic vehicles they are really boring.

I admit that classics are not everyone's cup of tea but a good classic will make any trip out a memorable one. Many older classics have to be talked to nicely and lavished with expensive offerings otherwise they will sulk and refuse to go. Like a pet they enjoy your company and often take great delight in throwing you the odd curved ball instead. If you arrive at your destination without breaking down they will give you a genuine sense of achievement. The joys of motoring in an early open car are totally removed with modern day driving. With many you can't just jump in and go as things must be done to coax your old timer into action. On the road you will always hear that strange worrying noise you haven't heard before and you must always keep a second ear open for the noise of bits dropping off. You can't just pop down to the motor factors and order another. Getting out and getting under is all part of the fun as are the hours of fettling in the garage.

I agree that like your Fiat, classics are for many a nostalgia trip that can leave them dissapointed. For me, being brought up in the fifties and sixties I prefer pre nostalgia vehicles, in fact the older and quirkier the better, ones that cough out pollution and drop hot oil everywhere. With this type of vehicle the contrast between ancient and modern is so vast that it makes you realise just how good the modern car has become.

With poor lighting, abysmal brakes, dodgy steering and appalling handling I often wonder why I am driving such a vehicle in modern traffic. However, they are tremendous fun and I believe they also make you a better driver. Every pot hole is a major event and you have to anticipate what others are going to do and plan way ahead to avoid problems. Unlike modern vehicles you can't just sit back listening to a CD, relying on a hard press on the servo assisted dual circuit brake pedal with ABS and automatic radar emergency braking function to get you out of trouble. Like many others, my antique motors have the stopping distance of a super tanker which spices up the experience no end!

I've not driven a TR6 myself but I am confident that if you had you would upgrade your culinary description of this superb classic English sports car.

I agree with pretty much everything there Borris!

I have driven two TR6, owned by friends - both very, very good ones, and I wouldn’t ever want one. Those friends have owned between them a Sunbeam Tiger, TR4, MGA, MGC, TVR and sundry other British sports cars - that none are owned by them now, and they have BMW 330 and a 335 X-Drive tells its own story.

One friend‘s family has six, yes, six, Peerless GTs, a V12 manual E-Type coupé, and an XK150 . ’Meh!’.

Were a very large bagful of cash to fall through my letterbox, my heart would very likely encourage me to scour the classic car adverts for a Toyota 2000GT, or a DeTomaso Mangusta, or a Mira SV, or a 275GTB, or a ‘66 Olds Toronado, or a ’66 Lincoln Continental Convertible, or a Mercedes 600 Pullman. But my head would tell me that driving any would likely be a great disappointment - and would destroy those cherished childhood aspirations and dreams about those cars. They are of their time.

Sadly, to use another gastronomical metaphor, there’s even fewer contemporary cars that ‘wobble my jelly’.

 

[clarinetbcn]

Were a very large bagful of cash to fall through my letterbox, my heart would very likely encourage me to scour the classic car adverts for a Toyota 2000GT, or a DeTomaso Mangusta, or a Mira SV, or a 275GTB, or a ‘66 Olds Toronado, or a ’66 Lincoln Continental Convertible, or a Mercedes 600 Pullman. But my head would tell me that driving any would likely be a great disappointment - and would destroy those cherished childhood aspirations and dreams about those cars. They are of their time.

Sadly, to use another gastronomical metaphor, there’s even fewer contemporary cars that ‘wobble my jelly’.

Do yourself a favor, and make it your life's project to drive each one of these cars, and then tell us about it. You won't be disappointed, you'll be sorry you deprived yourself of doing it sooner.

Not being able to intensely enjoy driving a 2000GT or a 275GTB because you've driven a 335 X-Drive is like saying you can't appreciate Mozart because you've heard Bruce Springsteen. You don't have to choose.

Edit: I have driven a '66 Lincoln Continental Convertible, reminded me of my '65 Impala convertible on steroids (see earlier post). What are you waiting for!

 

[andyinluton]

a 335 Xdrive is what you have when its the destination that's the reason for going.
The 275GTB is for when the destination doesn't matter, its the journey that counts.

Having both is the important bit.

A cali covers the sensible, practical bit, the other car is for driving enjoyment.

 

[clarinetbcn]

a 335 Xdrive is what you have when its the destination that's the reason for going.
The 275GTB is for when the destination doesn't matter, its the journey that counts.

Having both is the important bit.

A cali covers the sensible, practical bit, the other car is for driving enjoyment.

Driving the Cali (or a TR6 with a two person tent)...it's not practical, it's like doing the 270km Tour of Mont Blanc on foot through France, Italy and Switzerland for 9 days while contemplating sunrise on that incredible range every day at a different angle (done it), compared to the "335 X-Drivers" of the Mont Blanc Ultra-marathon, who cover the same route in 72 hours while only looking at their feet. Different strokes.

Pic: neighbors at a campground outside Edinburgh

 

[Borris]

They are of their time.

Isn't that the point? Why buy a classic and expect it to drive like a modern car? One bought on that basis will only ever lead to disappointment.

 

[Trevor Brown]

My retirement dream car bought ... 2012 ... 20k miles ... perfect condition

 

[soulstyledevon]

View attachment 70511
Driving the Cali (or a TR6 with a two person tent)...it's not practical, it's like doing the 270km Tour of Mont Blanc on foot through France, Italy and Switzerland for 9 days while contemplating sunrise on that incredible range every day at a different angle (done it), compared to the "335 X-Drivers" of the Mont Blanc Ultra-marathon, who cover the same route in 72 hours while only looking at their feet. Different strokes.

Pic: neighbors at a campground outside Edinburgh

I swear I’ve camped next to this guy about 2 years ago in North Devon...

 

[Velma's Dad]

I swear I’ve camped next to this guy about 2 years ago in North Devon...

As far as I'm concerned that Big Healey would be one of the only acceptable manifestations of 'Great White'.

 

[NorCal]

Isn't that the point? Why buy a classic and expect it to drive like a modern car? One bought on that basis will only ever lead to disappointment.

I imagine very many classic owners are hugely disappointed - but will not admit to it.

 

[clarinetbcn]

Obviously not a fan of Mozart.

 

[Borris]

I imagine very many classic owners are hugely disappointed - but will not admit to it.

I've no doubt you are right with some owners however if that were the case across the board why is the classic car movement so big?

 

[Velma's Dad]

I imagine very many classic owners are hugely disappointed - but will not admit to it.

What an odd statement. Yes I'm sure there are probably some who buy a classic car, get bored with it and put it away in the garage or sell it again a year later. Equally there are many people who go beyond their first classic to own two, three or more (a lovely chap I know has 28 of them) and derive huge enjoyment from the cars themselves, events and classic motorsport, and the vibrant club communities both face-to-face (not so much this year, obvs) and online.

 

[andyinluton]

You either "get" classics or you don't.

For those that don't there's always this years updated all new BMW/AUDI/ etc that you can have on a PCP, its sure to impress the neighbours. Or better still just wait for the newest self driving model, won't even have to bother pressing pedals or steering then.

 

[NorCal]

I've no doubt you are right with some owners however if that were the case across the board why is the classic car movement so big?

For how long I wonder? I work with many younger colleagues and there’s few interested in classic cars - even contemporary cars have little appeal. The offspring of my diehard petrolhead friends have little interest in classics. It’s hard to imagine a Corsa as a classic, but who’d have thought a MK2 Escort would achieve the current (short-lived?) height of desire...

 

[Velma's Dad]

For how long I wonder? I work with many younger colleagues and there’s few interested in classic cars - even contemporary cars have little appeal. The offspring of my diehard petrolhead friends have little interest in classics. It’s hard to imagine a Corsa as a classic, but who’d have thought a MK2 Escort would achieve the current (short-lived?) height of desire...

That (ie the millennials and classics) is certainly a question that's been exercising the industry for some years. Younger boomers have been continuing to buy up classics (although the market slowed from about 2015). At the same time, older boomers have in some cases been downsizing their collections - or dying and leaving their cars to their kids, who in many cases don't want them. But what will the effect be of the mainstream shift to EVs? Will at least some of those Gen Xers and Millennials get into old ICE classics for the nostalgia? Or will they just never be interested? Forecasting is hard, especially about the future.

Fortunately it doesn't bother me in the slightest as I don't regard any of my cars as an asset, they're just for me to drive, tinker with, and enjoy with like-minded others.

Re the Mk 2 Escort (or indeed the Mark 1)... all I can say is that in the right conditions - ie on the gravel, driven on the throttle - the Escort is magical, it dances. I've never driven or even sat in a proper RS1800, which was basically a homologation car developed for rallying, and with only about 75 of them still in existence I probably never will. But if one came on the market I'd expect to be looking at £150-200k. Yes I know I could pick up a decent Ferrari Maranello for less than that but no doubt which I would choose.

 

[Borris]

For how long I wonder? I work with many younger colleagues and there’s few interested in classic cars - even contemporary cars have little appeal. The offspring of my diehard petrolhead friends have little interest in classics. It’s hard to imagine a Corsa as a classic, but who’d have thought a MK2 Escort would achieve the current (short-lived?) height of desire...

They've been saying that for years in Veteran Car circles but there still remains massive interest in these early cars. I can't see other categories of classics losing fans either. Most contemporary cars are as dull as dull can be and anyway the presence of complicated ECUs will ensure there lives are relatively short lived.
Perhaps your young colleagues are more interested in fancy bicycles and the latest EV technology at the moment. But when they get a little older possibly with a greater disposable income in their pockets their views might change. However, I can't see anyone but the oddest of bods becoming nostalgic about some boring old knackered battery pack on wheels. In addition, old EVs are likely to be uneconomic to keep on the road once the batteries reach that stage so are not likely to survive like classic ICE vehicles have. So that leaves those noisy, interesting and evocative vehicles from bygone years like the ones their fathers and grandfathers had. Yes, nostalgia is a big driving factor in the classic car movement but it's by no means the only reason people own them.
From what you have said I would say that classic vehicles are not really for you. Also, it would be wrong to assume that interest in them is dying out. With the way vehicle design and motive power is developing I can only see the current finite pool of classics becoming more interesting to a greater number of enthusiasts. My ten year old grandson is ever keen to help his grandpops with the spannering.

 

[NorCal]

They've been saying that for years in Veteran Car circles but there still remains massive interest in these early cars. I can't see other categories of classics losing fans either. Most contemporary cars are as dull as dull can be and anyway the presence of complicated ECUs will ensure there lives are relatively short lived.
Perhaps your young colleagues are more interested in fancy bicycles and the latest EV technology at the moment. But when they get a little older possibly with a greater disposable income in their pockets their views might change. However, I can't see anyone but the oddest of bods becoming nostalgic about some boring old knackered battery pack on wheels. In addition, old EVs are likely to be uneconomic to keep on the road once the batteries reach that stage so are not likely to survive like classic ICE vehicles have. So that leaves those noisy, interesting and evocative vehicles from bygone years like the ones their fathers and grandfathers had. Yes, nostalgia is a big driving factor in the classic car movement but it's by no means the only reason people own them.
From what you have said I would say that classic vehicles are not really for you. Also, it would be wrong to assume that interest in them is dying out. With the way vehicle design and motive power is developing I can only see the current finite pool of classics becoming more interesting to a greater number of enthusiasts. My ten year old grandson is ever keen to help his grandpops with the spannering.

Funnily enough I owned two classic hybrids (almost battery packs on wheels....); 1 gen Honda Insights. And I‘d confidently describe them as classics!

A rather interesting driving experience; I managed 92 mpg on a journey to the NEC some years ago. The worst part of driving an Insight were questions when filling-up (very infrequently) and the ignorant assuming any vehicle with enclosed rear wheels must be a Citroen!

I sold the last one as it was becoming increasingly difficult to get parts. Being Hondas, spares weren‘t required often, but it was evident some critical ones may be a problem.

 

[Velma's Dad]

A propos a lot of the above, I came across this quite interesting piece by the 'grown up' motoring journo Harry Metcalfe about classic cars and how the EV changeover may affect them and the market for them.

If you don't have half-hour spare to watch it:

- Analyses the likely transition of UK car fleet to electric - ie even with the new car ICE ban by 2030 there will still be maybe 15-20 million ICE cars on the road and hence fuel stations for them, well into late 2030s.

- Illustrates the negligible carbon impact of continued ownership/use of classics, based on typical low mileages and the fact that the classics' embodied CO2 is a sunk cost (eg ten years' 'classic mode' motoring in a Lotus Elan will emit about the same CO2 as just one return flight to Los Angeles).

- Poses an interesting analogy for the higher-end classic cars - compares them with the steadily growing market for iconic mechanical/analogue watches (eg Patek Philippe) since the mainstream switch to electronic.

- Believes synthetic hydrocarbon fuels will keep ICEs in motorsport, and also keep classic cars viable.

He may be wrong on any of that of course, but there are some strong arguments there.

 

[soulstyledevon]

Porsche already investing in new fuels for proper cars...
I don’t think fuelling classic cars will be an issue. I’m early 40s and more and more friends are interested in cars from a bygone era. If anything, just to own something a bit more individual and interesting.

Fuzz Townsend lives locally to me. I often spot him and he’s never in anything modern.

Porsche investing $24 million in 'e-fuels' to supplement electrification of sports cars

Porsche officials said e-fuels can act like gasoline, allowing owners of current and classic vehicles a more environmentally friendly way to drive.

www.google.co.uk

 

[Borris]

A propos a lot of the above, I came across this quite interesting piece by the 'grown up' motoring journo Harry Metcalfe about classic cars and how the EV changeover may affect them and the market for them.

If you don't have half-hour spare to watch it:

- Analyses the likely transition of UK car fleet to electric - ie even with the new car ICE ban by 2030 there will still be maybe 15-20 million ICE cars on the road and hence fuel stations for them, well into late 2030s.

- Illustrates the negligible carbon impact of continued ownership/use of classics, based on typical low mileages and the fact that the classics' embodied CO2 is a sunk cost (eg ten years' 'classic mode' motoring in a Lotus Elan will emit about the same CO2 as just one return flight to Los Angeles).

- Poses an interesting analogy for the higher-end classic cars - compares them with the steadily growing market for iconic mechanical/analogue watches (eg Patek Philippe) since the mainstream switch to electronic.

- Believes synthetic hydrocarbon fuels will keep ICEs in motorsport, and also keep classic cars viable.

He may be wrong on any of that of course, but there are some strong arguments there.

A great video with some interesting perspectives. I must say that I can't see the interest in classic cars ever waning. I agree with Harry, it will just continue to grow.

 

[Laidback]

Along came a Spyder and a Proper campervan, not your over priced pimped up builders van.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Okay I'll take the Porker... although tempted by the Pug D4 also. But I'd have to paint it dark blue and have GENDARMERIE down the side.

 

[Velma's Dad]

A propos a lot of the above, I came across this quite interesting piece by the 'grown up' motoring journo Harry Metcalfe about classic cars and how the EV changeover may affect them and the market for them.

If you don't have half-hour spare to watch it:

- Analyses the likely transition of UK car fleet to electric - ie even with the new car ICE ban by 2030 there will still be maybe 15-20 million ICE cars on the road and hence fuel stations for them, well into late 2030s.

- Illustrates the negligible carbon impact of continued ownership/use of classics, based on typical low mileages and the fact that the classics' embodied CO2 is a sunk cost (eg ten years' 'classic mode' motoring in a Lotus Elan will emit about the same CO2 as just one return flight to Los Angeles).

- Poses an interesting analogy for the higher-end classic cars - compares them with the steadily growing market for iconic mechanical/analogue watches (eg Patek Philippe) since the mainstream switch to electronic.

- Believes synthetic hydrocarbon fuels will keep ICEs in motorsport, and also keep classic cars viable.

He may be wrong on any of that of course, but there are some strong arguments there.

Just bumping this topic because the classic rallying organisation HERO-ERA* has just released a report today, commissioned from the economic analysis firm CEBR, on the UK classic car industry.

Report PDF is below but here are some take-outs:
- Just over 3 million historic and classic vehicles in UK with total value of £12.6bn.
- Turnover of the whole sector is £18bn, gross value-added £9bn (ie about twice the size of the Scotch Whisky industry).
- Supports 113,000 jobs, most earning well above average wages (due to skills levels).
- Contributes £2.9bn pa in UK tax revenues.
- Because of high labour content and low materials/energy content, average CO2 emissions per owner is less than a week in Ibiza or using a mobile phone for a year.
- On a per-£ spent basis, £1,000 spent on classic cars creates £80kg CO2, versus 537kg for £1,000 on average consumer expenditure.
- Industry is geographically highly dispersed, only 5% in London.

If anyone's interested, there will be a vid about the report tomorrow (Tue) at 11.30am then watch again on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/heroeventseu.

* Full disclosure: I'm a member of HERO-ERA.

 

[WelshGas]

Classic cars at risk from criminals using trackers and secret cameras

Martin EvansCRIME CORRESPONDENT

CAR thieves are using motion sensitive wildlife cameras and tracking devices to target desirable classic vehicles, it has emerged.
Owners are warned to be on the lookout for unusual activity around their homes and garages after investigators uncovered the sophisticated lengths gangs were going to in order to target certain models.
The proportion of classic cars that are recovered out of the hundreds stolen each year, often in targeted incidents
It is thought spotters, sometimes operating with a “shopping list”, will look out for certain vehicles at car shows and then surreptitiously attach magnetic tracking devices to learn where the owner lives. Once they have the address, they set up motion-triggered cameras, popular with wildlife enthusiasts, in order to monitor the comings and goings of the vehicle owner. They are then able to strike when the coast is clear and make off with the car without trace.
Dr Ken German, a former Scotland Yard car theft expert, said the market for stolen classic cars was booming, but sometimes very expensive and rare models were stolen just for parts.
He said: “There is a lot of money to be made and so it is not surprising the lengths some people will go to.
“One owner found a tracking device wrapped in a condom to keep it dry attached to the underside of his classic car. And there have been other cases where thieves have been caught and the police have uncovered these camouflaged motion sensitive cameras.”
Of the hundreds of classic cars stolen each year only around 5 per cent are ever recovered.
In 2019, the most popular classic cars targeted by thieves were Jaguars, MGBs, Minis, Fords and Fiat 500s