4Motion or not?

[GrannyJen]

I've no 'skin in the game' but was wondering if the 4motion was dropped from the price list, would the 4 motion devotees not own a Cali?
That hypothetical question at least helps us decide if 4wd is a 'must' have or a 'nice to have'.

The availability of 4WD was the deal breaker when I was changing my Cali and looking at the obvious competition.

 

[WelshGas]

I don't have any deep expertise in vehicle dynamics but I don't believe for one minute that article was actually written by someone that has any either. Specifically:

"Since power is transmitted equally by all four tires instead of by only two, the load on each tire is reduced and the tires’ cornering force can be effectively utilized, providing excellent stable cornering."

What a lot of guff. Why/how is the load on each tyre reduced? A turning tyre has the same lateral forces acting on it whether it is driven or not. Tyres don't generate 'cornering force', they merely counteract, through friction, the inertial forces acting on the vehicle.

4WD is a great aid to traction in certain circumstances (which is why one of our cars is 4WD, to get us up the hill to our house on the couple of days each year when it snows), but a driver who thinks it will keep them on the road in a corner may be in for a nasty surprise one day.

Obviously you are not very knowledgeable about these matters. Wheel spin, loss of traction on one or more wheels have a significant effect which 4Motion is able to mitigate. Obviously if you don't have it then you wont miss it.

 

[WelshGas]

I don't have any deep expertise in vehicle dynamics but I don't believe for one minute that article was actually written by someone that has any either. Specifically:

"Since power is transmitted equally by all four tires instead of by only two, the load on each tire is reduced and the tires’ cornering force can be effectively utilized, providing excellent stable cornering."

What a lot of guff. Why/how is the load on each tyre reduced? A turning tyre has the same lateral forces acting on it whether it is driven or not. Tyres don't generate 'cornering force', they merely counteract, through friction, the inertial forces acting on the vehicle.

4WD is a great aid to traction in certain circumstances (which is why one of our cars is 4WD, to get us up the hill to our house on the couple of days each year when it snows), but a driver who thinks it will keep them on the road in a corner may be in for a nasty surprise one day.

Do you really think Audi would have spent time and money and developed the Quattro 4 Wheel drive system if they could have got the same benefits by changing tyres, fitting HDRs and lowering the vehicle?

 

[Velma's Dad]

Obviously you are not very knowledgeable about these matters. Wheel spin, loss of traction on one or more wheels have a significant effect which 4Motion is able to mitigate. Obviously if you don't have it then you wont miss it.

Okay [sigh], how exactly then does reduced wheel spin contribute to maintaining lateral grip (which was the sole issue I was talking about in my post)? Please explain it to to me in simple terms that an un-knowledgeable person like me can comprehend, because I'm just stuck with the laws of physics (plus a lot of formal training and experience driving various types of 4WD vehicles on and off road in five continents) but I obviously don't have access to this higher body of transcendental but non-specific wisdom you seem to be invoking.

Maybe though it would help if I re-stated my point: 4WD/AWD/diff locks/whatever have, of themselves, no effect whatsoever on the ability of a tyre to maintain lateral grip (and hence stop the vehicle sliding sideways off the road into the scenery). Or, by the way, to stop you any more quickly than 2WD. The more balanced traction of 4WD can allow you to accelerate more quickly out of a corner on a loose or slick surface, but that's a performance advantage, not a safety one. My issue is that I believe the motor industry has imputed a safety advantage for their expensive, heavy 4WD options which is not justified.

The OP asked if 4WD is 'worth it'. And I'm saying yes, if extra performance - under certain conditions not typically encountered on a UK public road, or the ability to get out of very muddy fields or up a slipway, is something you want/need (in which case don't bother through unless you've looked at tyre choice first) , but not on grounds of enhanced safety, which is generally illusory.

 

[Moose]

I was going for 4motion but the only reason I didn't was I may have require the 5 seat which you can’t have in the 4 motion, 2 years down the road never used the seat

 

[bigmac77]

I was going for 4motion but the only reason I didn't was I may have require the 5 seat which you can’t have in the 4 motion, 2 years down the road never used the seat

Two years down the road have you ever been in a situation where you’ve needed 4wd?

 

[No_heroes]

Independent of drivetrain- with the wrong tyres a muddy field will bog down any vehicle. See all the modern land rovers with 20inch/wide tyres to go over the brakes- totally useless irrelevant of clever electronic diffs.

My point simply is the 4motion is a much better vehicle for driving stability and grip in every condition. I have owned and driven both and can support factually that the 4motion vehicle is far superior. My view is that 200bhp DSG is not aligned to the traction offered by front wheel drive and over powers it quickly.

The questions on when you use the system. Every single drive!!

 

[Moose]

Two years down the road have you ever been in a situation where you’ve needed 4wd?

NO never !!!!

 

[andyinluton]

On road 4 motion makes absolutely no difference over about 10 mph. Its good for increased traction pulling away on damp roads, once underway 3 tonnes is sufficient to keep it well planted, in its normal state only 10% of power is going to the rear, 10% of even 199hp isn't exactly a huge shove of power from the rear.

In snow its stopping that's the bigger problem not traction. A set of winter tyres on a FWD will get you further than 4WD on normal tyres.

On muddy fields it will have an advantage, but in the last ten years by using a bit of common sense, Ive never managed to get stuck.

If you don't intend off roading its a complete waste of money.

According to the 2014 brochure, a FWD 180DSG weighs in at 2512kg the 4motion version is a porky 2634 kg thats the same as carrying an extra 2 adults all the time. From the same brochure, the fuel consumption is 10% worse, the emissions are 10% higher. It accelerates slower, It costs more to buy, has a lower payload, it seats less people.

Perhaps the question should be why on earth would anyone actually pay more to have 4motion.

Thats my case for the defence for sticking with 2 wheel drive, I will now put on a tin helmet and dive for cover.

 

[andyinluton]

Do you really think Audi would have spent time and money and developed the Quattro 4 Wheel drive system if they could have got the same benefits by changing tyres, fitting HDRs and lowering the vehicle?

Yes, if it means they can sell something that no-one really needs for lots of money.

 

[WelshGas]

Okay [sigh], how exactly then does reduced wheel spin contribute to maintaining lateral grip (which was the sole issue I was talking about in my post)? Please explain it to to me in simple terms that an un-knowledgeable person like me can comprehend, because I'm just stuck with the laws of physics (plus a lot of formal training and experience driving various types of 4WD vehicles on and off road in five continents) but I obviously don't have access to this higher body of transcendental but non-specific wisdom you seem to be invoking.

Maybe though it would help if I re-stated my point: 4WD/AWD/diff locks/whatever have, of themselves, no effect whatsoever on the ability of a tyre to maintain lateral grip (and hence stop the vehicle sliding sideways off the road into the scenery). Or, by the way, to stop you any more quickly than 2WD. The more balanced traction of 4WD can allow you to accelerate more quickly out of a corner on a loose or slick surface, but that's a performance advantage, not a safety one. My issue is that I believe the motor industry has imputed a safety advantage for their expensive, heavy 4WD options which is not justified.

The OP asked if 4WD is 'worth it'. And I'm saying yes, if extra performance - under certain conditions not typically encountered on a UK public road, or the ability to get out of very muddy fields or up a slipway, is something you want/need (in which case don't bother through unless you've looked at tyre choice first) , but not on grounds of enhanced safety, which is generally illusory.

Why you keep going on about wheelspin and traction and lateral grip and enhanced safety I just do not know. The whole point with the 4Motion Haldex System is that you have power provided to two axles, front and rear, and this power is divided between the two to a maximum of 90-10% and variable depending on the driving conditions and traction on the road surface which is dependant on the tyres used.
FWD can only ever have a power ratio of 100-0% and that cannot vary and traction is still tyre dependant, but in this case if traction is lost on the driving axle then that’s it, you are then dependant on the traction of the non-driven/powered rear axle.
No one has talked about driving faster with a 4Motion vehicle or anything similar.
FWD with the correct tyres is a very capable vehicle but 4Motion with the same tyres is more capable. It may be the greater weight, but if both vehicles are loaded to their maximum then that factor is cancelled so that all is left is the function of the variable drive 4Motion system

The 4Wheel drive systems on the likes of Land Rover Defenders and similar vehicles bares absolutely no comparison to the 4Motion system in Function or Action.

 

[westfalia]

On road 4 motion makes absolutely no difference over about 10 mph.

Are you sure about that.

I had an A6 quattro last year, fast B4s^´^rd
It felt well and truly planted especially in bad weather at high speed.

Although i don't know if quattro is the same as 4motion.
If it is then its a winner.

 

[WelshGas]

I really do think I detect a touch of jealousy creeping in by the people advocating 2 wheel drive.
The OP did ask which you would choose if there was no financial penalty.
No one disputes that a FWD vehicle with winter/snow tyres will out perform a 4 Motion with summer tyres. Funny how they never compare against a 4Motion with the same winter/snow tyres.

 

[andyinluton]

No one disputes that a FWD vehicle with winter/snow tyres will out perform a 4 Motion with summer tyres. Funny how they never compare against a 4Motion with the same winter/snow tyres.

I would be interested to see the braking distances compared, physics would suggest that the FWD would stop quicker due to the lower weight?

 

[WelshGas]

On road 4 motion makes absolutely no difference over about 10 mph. Its good for increased traction pulling away on damp roads, once underway 3 tonnes is sufficient to keep it well planted, in its normal state only 10% of power is going to the rear, 10% of even 199hp isn't exactly a huge shove of power from the rear.

In snow its stopping that's the bigger problem not traction. A set of winter tyres on a FWD will get you further than 4WD on normal tyres.

On muddy fields it will have an advantage, but in the last ten years by using a bit of common sense, Ive never managed to get stuck.

If you don't intend off roading its a complete waste of money.

According to the 2014 brochure, a FWD 180DSG weighs in at 2512kg the 4motion version is a porky 2634 kg thats the same as carrying an extra 2 adults all the time. From the same brochure, the fuel consumption is 10% worse, the emissions are 10% higher. It accelerates slower, It costs more to buy, has a lower payload, it seats less people.

Perhaps the question should be why on earth would anyone actually pay more to have 4motion.

Thats my case for the defence for sticking with 2 wheel drive, I will now put on a tin helmet and dive for cover.

Incorrect I’m afraid. There is no speed limit for the 4Motion to be working.

4Motion | Transmissions & Drivetrains | Volkswagen UK

Explore 4Motion & discover how VW 4 wheel drive systems work hard to keep you save in all weather conditions, providing stability, grip & control.

www.volkswagen.co.uk

 

[WelshGas]

I would be interested to see the braking distances compared, physics would suggest that the FWD would stop quicker due to the lower weight?

And what about a fully loaded to MGW 2 wheel drive against a fully loaded to MGW 4 Motion?

 

[andyinluton]

Incorrect I’m afraid. There is no speed limit for the 4Motion to be working.

4Motion | Transmissions & Drivetrains | Volkswagen UK

Explore 4Motion & discover how VW 4 wheel drive systems work hard to keep you save in all weather conditions, providing stability, grip & control.

www.volkswagen.co.uk

No need to be afraid. You've missed the point, the benefit of 4motion is additional traction, if your doing more than 10mph & your wheels are spinning, your either a terrible driver that doesn't know how to use the accelerator properly, or you are driving too fast for the conditions.
Hence for a half competent driver, over 10mph the 4motion bit is a waste of time.

 

[Eber123]

Good afternoon,

I believe that there are two main areas to consider 2WD or 4WD, 1.) the cost and 2.) how much will I gain from 4WD in comparison to 2WD (in other words is it worth to spend more money).

Thinking about it, maybe there is a 3rd one, which is the "want factor". I believe this has more impact than cost and additional functionality.

I have a 2WD California Ocean. I chose this one, because it was an offer of an pre reg van for a price that I was able to afford. If I would had more money I would had added the 4WD and DSG (which I believe will be discussed in a different thread).

I estimated that the cost to run the California per month is about EUR 230.00. This includes the cost for insurance, Tax, parking, Service and diesel. But only if nothing breaks (well, still under warranty). I assume that the cost for the same van, but with 4WD would be EUR 270 - 300 per calendar month (again this is an estimate). This should cater for the additional cost for service and higher diesel consumption. What is not included is the loss on value because it is difficult to calculate (well, at least for me) and if possible I wish to keep the van as long as possible.

About the gain of having a 4WD to a 2WD. This was already discussed in previous posts and different threads from people who understand that subject far better than me. But my opinion is that in bad weather (strong rain, snow and frost) there is not doubt that 4WD is better. For me I like to "crawl" around on roads in places far away of the beaten track at home as well as on holidays. Because of this for me it is no question if possiple to get the 4WD.

That leads us straight to the beginning - can I afford to upgrade to the 4WD or not. My clear opinion is that it should be added if the new proud owner can afford it. If not, obviously get the 2WD and a set of good tyres and enjoy 1 million km of roads in Europe .

Regards,
Eberhard
(PS proud owner of a 2WD California)

 

[andyinluton]

And what about a fully loaded to MGW 2 wheel drive against a fully loaded to MGW 4 Motion?

If you had two otherwise identical vans at your disposal, are you really suggesting you would load them differently?

 

[andyinluton]

I'm just glad the OP didn't ask whether to get Manual or DSG, keep a portapotti under the sink or fill up with a garden hose. Or is that his next question?

 

[WelshGas]

If you had two otherwise identical vans at your disposal, are you really suggesting you would load them differently?

No, both loaded to the same MGW. That is obviously the best way to compare braking effectiveness.
If they are both empty then one vehicle is about 70+ Kgms heavier than the other so there might be a difference between the two but hardly comparing like with like.

No need to be afraid. You've missed the point, the benefit of 4motion is additional traction, if your doing more than 10mph & your wheels are spinning, your either a terrible driver that doesn't know how to use the accelerator properly, or you are driving too fast for the conditions.
Hence for a half competent driver, over 10mph the 4motion bit is a waste of time.

Heaven help us from the expert driver who can foresee what is around the next bend or what is going to happen next.

 

[andyinluton]

If they are both empty then one vehicle is about 70+ Kgms heavier than the other so there might be a difference between the two

I don't know where you get 70kg from, in the 2014 brochure it was 2512kg v 2634kg for the DSG model.thats 122kg.

Makes my manual 2wd at 2,323KG look positively anorexic.

 

[WelshGas]

I don't know where you get 70kg from, in the 2014 brochure it was 2512kg v 2634kg for the DSG model.thats 122kg.

Makes my manual 2wd at 2,323KG look positively anorexic.

Just quoting @Velma's Dad post where he quoted 70 Kgm for the 4Motion system so that’s why I stated 70 + Kgm as I couldn’t be bothered to look up the exact figure.

In fact it’s 97 Kgms heavier for the equivalent Model 204/199 Engine.

 

[Wesel]

 

[flying banana]

I've forgot who the original poster was now. Anyway if cost were no option then it's a no brainer isn't it.? If you're not bothered about the initial cost you're not bothered about mpg or higher maintenance costs. So yes. Get it. Me I've got just 2wd and never got stuck.even in mud at Harewood House recently. I do carry some grip matts just in case.