Discussion regarding T6 ONLY roof corrosion

[sbmcd]

After a bit more digging, Susibus added this in Aug14.......

1. WARRANY FOR ENTIRE ALUMINIUM ROOF SECTION EXTENDED TO SIX YEARS
   
   The timing of the article in VW Bus magazine may be a little unfortunate because today we have received a letter from VW which will be good news for all owners of Californias up to SIX YEARS OLD.
   
   The salient points in VW’s letter are, and I quote:
   
   ..............“As you are aware, all repairs relating to the front panel section of the California roof are covered by our paint warranty policy, not body protection warranty. While we recognise issues relating to roof corrosion, it is not as a result of through-corrosion of the aluminium panel. As such, repairs are covered by the three year paint warranty policy. In an effort to offer our customers peace of mind, we took the decision to offer an additional 3 years goodwill, extending the terms of the protection from three years to six.
   
   Following your most recent correspondence, we have again conducted a thorough review of the goodwill terms with our colleagues at Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles HQ in Hannover. As a result, I can now confirm that Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles will extend the terms of the goodwill to cover the entire roof panel. Any cases of roof corrosion to the main roof panel will now also be covered under our good will policy for up to six years.
   
   This enhanced support is linked to the individual Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) and is therefore transferable upon sale of the vehicle.
   
   We will be notifying our Van Centres of this additional enhancement. I would ask that you encourage any of your members who may be affected by this issue to visit their nearest Van Centre so that their vehicle may be assessed ............”
   
   We had requested that VW “offer a twelve year bodywork warranty, transferable on sale, with the word “perforation” deleted in relation to the aluminium sections of the vehicle”, but VW replied:
   
   “This has been reviewed however we are currently unable to do so”
   
   There you have it straight from VW Head Office – if your vehicle is under six years old and you have roof corrosion, it will be repaired under warranty. Therefore, it is up to you to check your vehicle particularly under the rubber seal, and if you do have corrosion then contact your nearest van dealer.
   
   I am not sure if this new warranty extension will be applied to countries outside the UK as VW appear to operate as separate entities in each country. Warranties terms differ even within the EU.
   
   SUSIBUS
   

That is good news, Is it possible to have a scan of the original letter from VW?

 

[thehorse]

Do we have contact details for the MD of VW UK and the head of customer services that issued this letter?

It says the extra support for 6 years warranty is linked to VIN numbers - I assume it won't be linked to the new T6.

I think this issue needs addressing at the top with someone who can do something about - hopefully push through a remedy for this corrosion and also guarantee vans that have already been built are covered with an extended warranty.

We certainly won't get that from someone on minimum wage in a call center in Milton Keynes

 

[Jabberwocky]

Do we have contact details for the MD of VW UK and the head of customer services that issued this letter?

It says the extra support for 6 years warranty is linked to VIN numbers - I assume it won't be linked to the new T6.

I think this issue needs addressing at the top with someone who can do something about - hopefully push through a remedy for this corrosion and also guarantee vans that have already been built are covered with an extended warranty.

We certainly won't get that from someone on minimum wage in a call center in Milton Keynes

I am in contact with @Martin , @SusiBus , @WelshGas and @Grey one to see what can be done.

 

[RoB5urf]

I mentioned the corrosion issue to my dealer who then stated "We have requested something in writing from Volkswagen to be able to put on the forum regarding this, watch this space."

 

[Jabberwocky]

I mentioned the corrosion issue to my dealer who then stated "We have requested something in writing from Volkswagen to be able to put on the forum regarding this, watch this space."

I look forward to seeing the response. @SusiBus

 

[snowy55]

I was under the impression that vw had fixed the corrosion on the late T5.
Am I right in thinking that they probably haven't?!
This was why we bought a new late 2014 T5 and not second hand.
Any thoughts?

Our SE was a 2014 and it had 2 resprays on the lifting section of the roof that failed again within 2 months and the fixed front section was replaced.
2014 isn't a great year as far as we were concerned.

According to himself, if there is a design flaw (which there is) under British law, VW are obliged to correct it. Six years is the time period specified.

I think it's called the "Statute of Limits Act" or something like that.
Basically VW are only giving you 6 years that are the law anyway and "spin" it as if they are doing you a favour!!!

 

[thehorse]

No other T6 owners checked their roof's yet?

50% of T6 roofs checked so far have corrosion but on a sample size of 4. Must be hundreds of T6 owners on this site, no one else tempted to take a peek?

 

[Jonathan Duke]

I'm still awaiting my T6 Beach..... Should be collecting it, any day soon. It was built wk48, and last update was it was in the UK on the 30th December.

From reading thru various roof corrosion posts, I suspect many are unwilling to remove the seal for investigation to be carried out.... Perhaps a short video-clip on how to do this would be helpful?

Then the warranty caveat "that you must report any problems, as soon as you are aware of them" will be the next hurdle.

Perhaps, asking the van-centre to check for corrosion, every service until the "end of warranty inspection" offers a better (albeit more selfish) solution, for some.

VW should have sorted this on the T6, and I, and am sure others are very keen to see if this is a common fault sooner rather that later However, data is what is required to establish that (perhaps an anonymous poll would also help?)

 

[Keith Smith]

I've decided not to look because if I found bubbling paint I would then be obliged to inform VW and get caught up in the repair process that ends up being a nightmare for most owners. If the repair cured the problem it would be a different matter but it appears that it does not. So, unless it starts to bubble past the seal, my plan is to leave it until the warranty is almost up and then get VW to take the seal off and see if I have a problem which I then need to deal with.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I'm still awaiting my T6 Beach..... Should be collecting it, any day soon. It was built wk48, and last update was it was in the UK on the 30th December.

From reading thru various roof corrosion posts, I suspect many are unwilling to remove the seal for investigation to be carried out.... Perhaps a short video-clip on how to do this would be helpful?

Then the warranty caveat "that you must report any problems, as soon as you are aware of them" will be the next hurdle.

Perhaps, asking the van-centre to check for corrosion, every service until the "end of warranty inspection" offers a better (albeit more selfish) solution, for some.

VW should have sorted this on the T6, and I, and am sure others are very keen to see if this is a common fault sooner rather that later However, data is what is required to establish that (perhaps an anonymous poll would also help?)

I agree data is what we need but getting that may be difficult. Like you I will take delivery of my new Cali in the next few weeks. Will I be looking under seals to see what might be? No!

If I spot a problem before the three year warranty period is up I will go and see the local van center and go through the painful process.

If I don't see any any corrosion after two years and lets say six months I will look under the seals (or maybe get the local van center to do it for me) just in case I am in for a surprise at three years and one month when the corrosion just creeps over the edge of the seal and I'm out of warranty!

There may be an addition problem which certainly makes me even more nervous about having an early peak - will removing the seal cause a problem that was not there before the peak?

 

[Meoncoast]

So, unless it starts to bubble past the seal, my plan is to leave it until the warranty is almost up and then get VW to take the seal off and see if I have a problem which I then need to deal with.

While my front sectioned bubbled and the paint lifted off - the main roof section under the seal had small bubbles which did not seem to enlarge over the 2+ years wait for repair. They were not near showing above the seal, without looking you would not have known they were there.

My question is how many vans showed bubbles above the seal I do not recall many being brought up on the forum if any (i know I am refering in this T6 thread to T5 vans but it may put some balance on the issue).I as well am not removing my T6 seal until towards the end of VW,s cover, I am happy to enjoy the van to the full and not loose sleep over what is happening under the seal which is tightly fixed.

 

[Jabberwocky]

My question is how many vans showed bubbles above the seal I do not recall many being brought up on the forum if any (i know I am refering in this T6 thread to T5 vans but it may put some balance on the issue).I as well am not removing my T6 seal until towards the end of VW,s cover, I am happy to enjoy the van to the full and not loose sleep over what is happening under the seal whit is tightly fixed.

M, I think you have the right strategy towards a potential elevating roof issue. I like you will not be lifting the seal of my new Cali until two years and x months, and even then I probably will get the Van Centre to do that - its more formal in case there is a problem.

 

[Jonathan Duke]

Leaving the seal in-place, and inspecting closer to the end of the warranty period, does seem to be the popular choice, and probably the view that I will take also (whilst regretting this is a more selfish approach.)

With no quantitative data..... It doesn't help the individuals who have already found an issue, nor any new customers over the next 2-3 years.... VW get to push this issue, into the long grass..... And individuals get frustrated, fighting their own battles, instead of as part of a group case. I guess this is how big companies get away with this sort of lazy practice, and poor customer service, in the first place. People, in general, don't want the hassle, and just "hope" they are one of the lucky ones who either gets no corrosion, or manages to sell their van before it becomes un-sightly, to someone else. It's dog-eat-dog out there I guess.

However, I'm also of the opinion.... That I don't want a cosmetic problem to spoil my new Cali adventure/lifestyle aspirations.

 

[sbmcd]

I am starting this thread so T6 owners and potential T6 owners are made aware that the T6 is subject to roof corrosion.



Here are 3 photos taken underneath the seal on the raising section of the roof on a May 2016 T6 California Beach taken today after our first trip away in her. .

Our much loved 2014 California SE was unsuccessfully repaired twice, the blistering quickly returned and it was booked in for a 3rd repair. We just could not bring ourselves to go through this all again and we made the difficult decision to part exchange it for the 2016 T6 Beach, thinking the problem had been cured. But obviously not!



So, our 2014 SE has it (three times), a loan 2015 SE had it and now our 2016 has it - the roof issue is still the same.

Remember folks when your warranty is up you're paying for your own repairs.



So yet again, we can either look forward to going to the dealers to register a fourth warranty claim for roof corrosion and then to go on a never ending list for an ineffectual repair but instead we are going to return the vehicle first thing in the morning and demand our money back! (See Consumer Right's Act 2015).



We have also cancelled the new T6 Beach we ordered on the 26th March, 2016 which is yet to be built!!!



Another VW will never darken our driveway again.

Hi Snowy,

You have said your VW was going to be going for its third roof repair when you decided enough was enough. I am now going to start going through the assessment / repair process and I am interested to know:
1) What warranty period was offered on the repair.
2) What were the periods between the repairs and reporting that the repairs were defective.
3) Did the 6 year extended warranty given on the roof cover all the repairs, for example could a roof be repaired multiple times within the six year period, or once it has been repaired would you have to rely on the repair warranty alone?

Stuart.

 

[thehorse]

I don't know why VW don't anodise the roof instead. They could be anodised to the same colour as the rest of the van and there would be no peeling/bubbling pain to worry about.

The anodising process is essentially a controlled corrosion with the outer layer forming aluminium oxide which protects the rest of the aluminium and there would be no need to paint the roof.

 

[sbmcd]

I don't know why VW don't anodise the roof instead. They could be anodised to the same colour as the rest of the van and there would be no peeling/bubbling pain to worry about.

The anodising process is essentially a controlled corrosion with the outer layer forming aluminium oxide which protects the rest of the aluminium and there would be no need to paint the roof.

They would still have to address the metal insert in the seal, if they did that I suspect this problem would disappear.

 

[stephen watson]

As someone who is about to buy an ex demo in a couple of weeks (and still have the option not to) I have found this thread very useful reading. It helps me to hear other people's views when making a decision, so in case there is anyone in a similar position I'll throw mine into the ring:
Firstly a very big thank you to Snowy for starting the thread and I feel gutted for what you have gone through and for the decision you eventually came to. I haven't had a Cali before so haven't experienced the angst you've had to go through. My feeling at the moment is that I'm not going to cancel and will carry on for the following reasons: It now seems fairly certain that, being a design fault, you would need to be extremely lucky not to suffer from this at some time in the future. Whilst it is inexcusable on VW's part at least I now know what to expect. Although there doesn't seem to be an effective repair at the moment, at least, unsightly as it is, it is largely cosmetic. If I don't go ahead I'm also left with what alternatives are there? I don't really want a conversion and at least with the Cali you get the full VW warranty. The Marco Polo looks OK, but at the end of the day how do you know what problems you may end up with in the future with this or any other vehicle?
Although it doesn't help those who want group pressure on VW now my feeling is that I will only check under the seals just before the warranty expires. I'd rather not go through the worry. Burying my head in the sand - perhaps, but we all need to end up with a strategy that works for each of us. Although it seems unlikely at the moment, there is also the possibility that VW will have come up with a permanent solution in a couple of years time.
Finally I wonder why the galvanic corrosion doesn't appear anywhere else on the raising roof? I assume the rubber seal must play a part. I know it's been mentioned that the seal may contain some steel , but it doesn't really make sense to me. Any thoughts?

 

[thehorse]

It's a difficult position to be in for sure.

For the people who don't want to look under the seal would you allow a prospective buyer to pull back your seal if you were selling? If corrosion was found I guess you'd be stuffed.

Also if you were buying second hand would you want to check under the seal before deciding to buy?

 

[Keith Smith]

It's a difficult position to be in for sure.

For the people who don't want to look under the seal would you allow a prospective buyer to pull back your seal if you were selling? If corrosion was found I guess you'd be stuffed.

Also if you were buying second hand would you want to check under the seal before deciding to buy?

That's a problem for anyone, even if you had previously had it repaired you wouldn't be confident if a prospective purchaser wanted to look under the seal.

The biggest problem with all this is that VW do not have a repair process that works.

 

[Tomatoman65]

I haven't read this thread in its entirety so I'm not sure whether this has been suggested elsewhere already:

( Galvanic Corrosion:
When two different metals or alloys are immersed in a corrosive solution or regularly connected by moisture, each will develop a corrosion potential. If the conditions for galvanic corrosion are present, the more noble metal will become the cathode and the more active metal will become the anode. A measurable current may flow between the anode and the cathode. If this occurs, the anode's rate of corrosion in the service environment will be increased while the cathode's corrosion rate will decrease. The increased corrosion of the anode is called "galvanic corrosion" )

My thinking was that aluminium aka the roof panel and ferrous metal aka the reinforcing strip in the weather seal can coexist happily without the aluminium being corroded but only in a moisture free environment. It is the presence of moisture that creates a situation in which galvanic corrosion occurs the roof panel aluminium being the sacrificial anode in this scenario.

We had our 2012 California repaired in October 2014 under warranty (front section replaced and lifting roof panel repainted). We then moved to France where in April of 2015 I noticed a few tiny bubbles reappearing under the weather strip where it had been repainted but only over an single 5cm section Knowing that dealing with VW Commercial in France was going to be another challenge altogether I decided to pack the weather strip with a good quality clear silicon grease that would be inert to paint and rubber but would keep any moisture out and reduce the chances of more bubbles appearing.

Well I am pleased to say that now after removing the weather seal and and residual grease the very early corrosion is no worse and is confined to the same 5cm area. I have repacked the weather seal with the remainder of the tube of grease and will check again in another 6 to 9 months. I am confident that this is a less than elegant solution to a problem which otherwise won't go away. BTW the front panel thankfully still looks OK.

 

[T6 CFO]

I haven't read this thread in its entirety so I'm not sure whether this has been suggested elsewhere already:

( Galvanic Corrosion:
When two different metals or alloys are immersed in a corrosive solution or regularly connected by moisture, each will develop a corrosion potential. If the conditions for galvanic corrosion are present, the more noble metal will become the cathode and the more active metal will become the anode. A measurable current may flow between the anode and the cathode. If this occurs, the anode's rate of corrosion in the service environment will be increased while the cathode's corrosion rate will decrease. The increased corrosion of the anode is called "galvanic corrosion" )

My thinking was that aluminium aka the roof panel and ferrous metal aka the reinforcing strip in the weather seal can coexist happily without the aluminium being corroded but only in a moisture free environment. It is the presence of moisture that creates a situation in which galvanic corrosion occurs the roof panel aluminium being the sacrificial anode in this scenario.

We had our 2012 California repaired in October 2014 under warranty (front section replaced and lifting roof panel repainted). We then moved to France where in April of 2015 I noticed a few tiny bubbles reappearing under the weather strip where it had been repainted but only over an single 5cm section Knowing that dealing with VW Commercial in France was going to be another challenge altogether I decided to pack the weather strip with a good quality clear silicon grease that would be inert to paint and rubber but would keep any moisture out and reduce the chances of more bubbles appearing.

Well I am pleased to say that now after removing the weather seal and and residual grease the very early corrosion is no worse and is confined to the same 5cm area. I have repacked the weather seal with the remainder of the tube of grease and will check again in another 6 to 9 months. I am confident that this is a less than elegant solution to a problem which otherwise won't go away. BTW the front panel thankfully still looks OK.

View attachment 18502

Very interesting.

Wikipedia says ....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone_grease

Mike

 

[snowy55]

Hi Snowy,

You have said your VW was going to be going for its third roof repair when you decided enough was enough. I am now going to start going through the assessment / repair process and I am interested to know:
1) What warranty period was offered on the repair.
2) What were the periods between the repairs and reporting that the repairs were defective.
3) Did the 6 year extended warranty given on the roof cover all the repairs, for example could a roof be repaired multiple times within the six year period, or once it has been repaired would you have to rely on the repair warranty alone?

Stuart.

The repair warranty is of course a bit complicated.
The workmanship is covered by the repairing workshop for one year the materials are covered by the material suppliers via the workshop for one year and the repair method is covered by Vw. When a repair fails the first thing Vw do is blame the repairing workshop, this is why some of the original 4 workshops no longer undertake this work. In the back ground is the six year warranty. We had two repairs and another repair approved in 2 1/2 years but we were losing the will to live with this absurd situation.

The vehicle was built in February 2014. We purchased in June 2014 as a 3 month old one pre reg with no miles on the clock.
Corrosion was noticed in September 2014 and repaired in February 2015.
Corrosion was noticed in October 2015 and repaired in July 2016
Corrosion was noticed in September 2016 and again approved for repair.
We are in Lanzarote at the moment so the above months are near enough but we havn't got our paper work with us, but you get the general idea!

 

[sbmcd]

I haven't read this thread in its entirety so I'm not sure whether this has been suggested elsewhere already:

( Galvanic Corrosion:
When two different metals or alloys are immersed in a corrosive solution or regularly connected by moisture, each will develop a corrosion potential. If the conditions for galvanic corrosion are present, the more noble metal will become the cathode and the more active metal will become the anode. A measurable current may flow between the anode and the cathode. If this occurs, the anode's rate of corrosion in the service environment will be increased while the cathode's corrosion rate will decrease. The increased corrosion of the anode is called "galvanic corrosion" )

My thinking was that aluminium aka the roof panel and ferrous metal aka the reinforcing strip in the weather seal can coexist happily without the aluminium being corroded but only in a moisture free environment. It is the presence of moisture that creates a situation in which galvanic corrosion occurs the roof panel aluminium being the sacrificial anode in this scenario.

We had our 2012 California repaired in October 2014 under warranty (front section replaced and lifting roof panel repainted). We then moved to France where in April of 2015 I noticed a few tiny bubbles reappearing under the weather strip where it had been repainted but only over an single 5cm section Knowing that dealing with VW Commercial in France was going to be another challenge altogether I decided to pack the weather strip with a good quality clear silicon grease that would be inert to paint and rubber but would keep any moisture out and reduce the chances of more bubbles appearing.

Well I am pleased to say that now after removing the weather seal and and residual grease the very early corrosion is no worse and is confined to the same 5cm area. I have repacked the weather seal with the remainder of the tube of grease and will check again in another 6 to 9 months. I am confident that this is a less than elegant solution to a problem which otherwise won't go away. BTW the front panel thankfully still looks OK.

View attachment 18502

I agree excluding the moisture seems an important action to try and prevent the corrosion, using grease rather than sealant allows easy removal for inspection.

The repair warranty is of course a bit complicated.
The workmanship is covered by the repairing workshop for one year the materials are covered by the material suppliers via the workshop for one year and the repair method is covered by Vw. When a repair fails the first thing Vw do is blame the repairing workshop, this is why some of the original 4 workshops no longer undertake this work. In the back ground is the six year warranty. We had two repairs and another repair approved in 2 1/2 years but we were losing the will to live with this absurd situation.

The vehicle was built in February 2014. We purchased in June 2014 as a 3 month old one pre reg with no miles on the clock.
Corrosion was noticed in September 2014 and repaired in February 2015.
Corrosion was noticed in October 2015 and repaired in July 2016
Corrosion was noticed in September 2016 and again approved for repair.
We are in Lanzarote at the moment so the above months are near enough but we havn't got our paper work with us, but you get the general idea!

Thanks for that information, that is all I need at the moment.

 

[2into1]

There was a good point made a few posts back.... Can't spot it now! It was suggesting that perhaps few owners have had main roof corrosion ACTUALLY rise up above the removable seal? Is that right? If it is, it maybe that it's all explained by the water in the (waterbased) paint trying to exit, when the seal is applied to still curing paint.
Wishful thinking perhaps, but if it were true, and could be fixed by properly baking a well executed repair before fitting the seal, things may be heading in the right direction.....
If vw have then filxed the front spoiler bit of the roof (from T6/very late T5, and with the encapsulation repair to older vans).... Even better.
I've obviously been taking hallucinogenic drugs. I'll take myself to A&E and await the destruction of my post.

 

[snowy55]

Thanks for that information, that is all I need at the moment.

Another really annoying thing is the bloke at our local dealership has three times fained surprise and tells me the California roof is "fiberglass or some kind of composite" so can't possibly be corroded---------if only !!!
Are they really that useless or are they trained to lie to customers?