Discussion regarding T6 ONLY roof corrosion

[greenfintry]

About Carbon fibre or similar, I was in contact with Malcolm on this forum and he was looking to do feasibility on such a solution to the roof on T5 s at that time. Sadly he passed away and never put the plan in motion. I have no technical knowledge of the process, but he seemed sure there was a business opportunity there for someone with the right skill set. Does anyone else on here have those skills, or even for Kev etc to sound out production via the Cali shop... might be a huge opportunity..... the complexity as I recalll was setting in the roof rails as they make the moulding more difficult but also impart some of the anti torsional strength.

Any other thoughts on this as the problem is surely not going away.... we all want to keep our vans, and it might even be possible to get a contract with VW to fix the lot!

 

[T6Beach]

Just been outside and we have it too on our T6 Beach

The rubber seal was quite tight but once budged the rest of it came away easily, we have several areas of small bubbles on both sides.

Inspection booked in for the dealer next Tuesday, they say I need to allow 2 hours!

Has nobody else checked ???

 

[Borris]

I accept that there may be other causes but there seems to be two main opinions on the cause of the rubber roof edging strip bi-metalic corrosion issue:
1. the edging strip may contain a steel gripper element and that is responsible for the bi-metalic corrosion.
2. The rubber strip allows grit and moisture to collect inside it thereby creating the right enviroment to promote corrosion.

If either or both of these theories are correct then would the answer be to fit a bonded rubber sealing strip that doesn't contain the steel gripper element. The said steel grippers only purpose is to grip the alloy roof panel thereby holding the rubber strip in place. If a bonded sealing strip were to be used then the steel gripper element (if it exists) wouldn't be necessary. Also it would'nt be possible for grit and moisture to get down inside a bonded seal. The only issue that I can see, is the removal of the bonded seal if a replacement seal were required. However vehicles already have bonded windscreens so I am sure that it wouldn't be too difficult to overcome that issue.

The other advantage it would have, is to prevent owners removing their sealing strips to look for corrosion in the first place thereby saving all the worry. However being serious, probably not a good idea because if this didn't cure the issue, any advantage would probably be in VW's favour. The customer would only find out about the corrosion when it shows itself on the day after the warrantee expires.

P.S We have a 2015 T5 SE and a 2016 T6 Beach. Both still well within their respective warrantee periods. I haven't looked under their seals so far as I don't really want to discover what now appears to be the inevitable factory fitted corrosion. My thinking being that I will get the dealer to do a thorough inspection, whilst in my presence, on the next occasion that each van is in for servicing. Or should I check now?

 

[thehorse]

Just been outside and we have it too on our T6 Beach

The rubber seal was quite tight but once budged the rest of it came away easily, we have several areas of small bubbles on both sides.

Inspection booked in for the dealer next Tuesday, they say I need to allow 2 hours!

Has nobody else checked ???

Oh dear, sorry to hear!

Out of interest has anyone pulled the seal off their T6 and found it doesn't have corrosion?

 

[Hotel California]

@snowy55 , exact my toughts.
I was under impression i was safe on my 2012 SE until my dealer CCN in Holland pointed this out and we pulled the seal off , me standing next....result ....bublles under the seal near the rear of the roof.

Everyone needs to check under the seal , T5 and T6 owners!...i wrote it on this forum 6 months ago in the 155page tread!

@larrylamb , you would think and assume not ....but the facts are written here....

 

[larrylamb]

Why carbon fibre roof? Surely there are plenty of decent plastic/fibreglass roofs out there. Who makes Westfalia roofs? Some of these have been around for years, certain new styles look very similar to a Cali roof with the front section almost a copy.

 

[Amarillo]

2. The rubber strip allows grit and moisture to collect inside it thereby creating the right enviroment to promote corrosion.

I think this is most likely to be the cause.

I had what thought to be carbon fibre handlebars on my touring bicycle. It turns out that they were aluminium handlebars with a carbon fibre sleeve. Over a period of about ten years, water had seeped between the sleeve and aluminium bars causing the handlebars to corrode. One day, cycling along the A20 in Lewisham, keeping pace with the traffic through the traffic lights, followed by a coach, my handlebars crumbled causing me to fall. Fortunately the coach juddered to a halt just inches from my rear end and I was unharmed. But a critical component which shouldn't fail had failed. The cause: water ingress between aluminium and a non metallic covering.

 

[snowy55]

Just been outside and we have it too on our T6 Beach

The rubber seal was quite tight but once budged the rest of it came away easily, we have several areas of small bubbles on both sides.

Inspection booked in for the dealer next Tuesday, they say I need to allow 2 hours!

Has nobody else checked ???

May I congratulate you on having the courage to check your T6.
My commiserations at find the dreaded bubbles.

You can now look forward to a very long wait for an ineffective repair and when that fails repeat the process until your warranty runs out and then pay for any further repairs.

A lot of people who are sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "la la la la" isn't going to get this problem sorted out, all it does is allow VW to carry on selling a defective vehicle, albeit cosmetic, knowing full well it corrode shortly after manufacture.

My original T5 and now my rejected T6 are both on the forecourt and on the VW website for sale ready for the next starry eyed sap to purchase.

Caveat emptor.

 

[blakeley]

May I congratulate you on having the courage to check your T6.
My commiserations at find the dreaded bubbles.

You can now look forward to a very long wait for an ineffective repair and when that fails repeat the process until your warranty runs out and then pay for any further repairs.

A lot of people who are sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "la la la la" isn't going to get this problem sorted out, all it does is allow VW to carry on selling a defective vehicle, albeit cosmetic, knowing full well it corrode shortly after manufacture.

My original T5 and now my rejected T6 are both on the forecourt and on the VW website for sale ready for the next starry eyed sap to purchase.

Caveat emptor.

I totally agree, the people digging their heads in the sand are not doing themselves or other members any favours for more than one reason.

1. VW needs to know this is a problem with the T6 as just one or two reports will go unnoticed

2. If you leave it until the near date of your warranty expiring you will be in the same boat as everyone is now with a 2-3 year wait to get it fixed, by then the bubbles will have spread way past the rubber seal.

3. By not reporting it, what happens if you decide to sell early? First thing a buyer will look for is corrosion, if they find it they will knock £££'s off the asking price.

 

[2into1]

3. By not reporting it, what happens if you decide to sell early? First thing a buyer will look for is corrosion, if they find it they will knock £££'s off the asking price.

I don't think anyone should underestimate the 'blow' that these T6 discoveries will have on the way Cali's are viewed by the market. It has gone from an annoying problem exacerbated by VW's incompetence, to a realisation that this is a life-long issue for the vans.

Until now, having a Cali with bubbles (or more) hasn't been too much of a problem when reselling so long as (i) it was registered with the VW for a fix, and (ii) because there was confidence that VW would know how to solve the issue. So until now, I don't think it has had much of a ££ impact on sub 6 year old Calis.

But finding corrosion on T6's has really proven that VW clearly haven't got a clue about how to solve it means that point (ii) is no longer true. Worse than that, folks will conclude a fix will never be possible.

2nd hand buyers are therefore going to more discerning and will try and find vans without any signs of trouble, and I assume the amount of 'tart-up' repairs that will be attempted prior to sale will increase.

I don't know if the forum has attempted to correlate the data behind the problems?
How much difference does:
* colour (itself, then solid vs metallic) make?
* does storing your van undercover make a big difference?
* are warmer / drier climates (Spain for eg) having fewer problems
* did the first vans suffer less (I've a feeling that may be true)

The 2006 Silver Cali I briefly owned two years was showing no problems. It had been stored in a garage but of course it could have been tarted-up for sale (although the seller genuinely didn't seem to know about the issue).

 

[snowy55]

I found on my 2014 SE the bubbles under the covers that go over the hydraulic pipes that raised the roof actually went flat and were very difficult to see in dry hot weather when the liquid in the bubble dried out.

 

[SprintGT]

I totally agree, the people digging their heads in the sand are not doing themselves or other members any favours for more than one reason.

1. VW needs to know this is a problem with the T6 as just one or two reports will go unnoticed

2. If you leave it until the near date of your warranty expiring you will be in the same boat as everyone is now with a 2-3 year wait to get it fixed, by then the bubbles will have spread way past the rubber seal.

3. By not reporting it, what happens if you decide to sell early? First thing a buyer will look for is corrosion, if they find it they will knock £££'s off the asking price.

I totally agree with your sentiments Blakeley and I have not even taken delivery of my van yet (although I understand it is now in the country).
I can't believe, however, that VW are not already aware of the extent of the problem. After all, they are sold worldwide and a significant number of T6 owners in other countries with climates similar to the UK, must surely have suffered the same problem and made their feelings known to VW.
One thing is for sure I will be scrutinising the seals on mine when I get it.

 

[Grey one]

I don't think anyone should underestimate the 'blow' that these T6 discoveries will have on the way Cali's are viewed by the market. It has gone from an annoying problem exacerbated by VW's incompetence, to a realisation that this is a life-long issue for the vans.

Until now, having a Cali with bubbles (or more) hasn't been too much of a problem when reselling so long as (i) it was registered with the VW for a fix, and (ii) because there was confidence that VW would know how to solve the issue. So until now, I don't think it has had much of a ££ impact on sub 6 year old Calis.

But finding corrosion on T6's has really proven that VW clearly haven't got a clue about how to solve it means that point (ii) is no longer true. Worse than that, folks will conclude a fix will never be possible.

2nd hand buyers are therefore going to more discerning and will try and find vans without any signs of trouble, and I assume the amount of 'tart-up' repairs that will be attempted prior to sale will increase.

I don't know if the forum has attempted to correlate the data behind the problems?
How much difference does:
* colour (itself, then solid vs metallic) make?
* does storing your van undercover make a big difference?
* are warmer / drier climates (Spain for eg) having fewer problems
* did the first vans suffer less (I've a feeling that may be true)

The 2006 Silver Cali I briefly owned two years was showing no problems. It had been stored in a garage but of course it could have been tarted-up for sale (although the seller genuinely didn't seem to know about the issue).

I got am e mail yesterday from what I think was administration at the club. I am sure it was a message to contact them if affected. I can't locate it now. The recent comments concerning the need to take coordinated action seem appropriate. Did anyone else see that e mail?

 

[GrannyJen]

I got am e mail yesterday from what I think was administration at the club. I am sure it was a message to contact them if affected. I can't locate it now. The recent comments concerning the need to take coordinated action seem appropriate. Did anyone else see that e mail?

Indeed.

Calling all T6 California Owners.

We have had reports that the T6 possibly has the same corrosion problem as the T5 version on the main elevating roof.

If you have a VW California T6 Ocean or Beach you need to check to see if you are affected, the corrosion starts under the rubber seal on the elevating roof and slowly works it way upwards .

How to Check:

1. Raise the roof around 30cm to expose the rubber seal that goes around the bottom of the roof.

2. Peel back the seal ( this may be quite tight but it is designed to be removed and will easily go back in to place afterwards)

3. Once the seal is removed away from the roof you need to look for any small bubbles or blisters, these could be anything from 1mm upwards in size.

4. Please report back to the forum with what you find and if possible some pictures.


Please Report Back to us HERE

*Please only use the link above - do not reply to this email

Regards,

VW California Club Team
e: admin@vwcaliforniaclub.com
w: www.vwcaliforniaclub.com

 

[Grey one]

Well located! I am clearly somewhat lacking in IT skills.

 

[GrannyJen]

no problem

This situation re T6 is outrageous. I am resigned to it on my T5. To carry over on to the T6 is unbelievable.

However whereas with the T5 VW could offer the impression "we have fixed it and problem solved with the new T6 with all problems solved" with it now occurring on the T6 their is an opportunity to tarnish their marketing. Unless it hurts them where it counts they will continue to treat their customers with contempt.

 

[WelshGas]

This is interesting re. the cause of rust under the seal on the elevating roof.
Our March 14 vehicle was repaired in Aug 14 after quickly showing the signs.
It was done at the nearby paint shop used by the local VW agent.
I spoke to the paint shop owner, a man with many years experience.
After making it clear he did not really want to do this but had no choice given how much business he received from VW, he said in his opinion the major factor was moisture underneath the rubber seal combined with inadequate priming of the aluminium. As to the steel strip in the rubber, he put insulation tape around the edge in case this was also a contributing factor.
I did put forward this information on here but was firmly shot down by one of our more frequent posters who felt his Landrover experience conclusively identified the cause as bi-metallic corrosion.
Of course it might turn out to be all 3.
Last time I checked no rust had returned but on the next dry day I will have another look.
I'm not holding my breath for VW to identify and publish the actual cause.

Can I also say, based on15 years of Mercedes ownership, don't expect them to be any better than VW if a problem like this occurs in the Marco Polo. With problems like this, at least on normal passenger vehicles, Mercedes tend to design them out when the vehicle receives its mid-term facelift, but do the usual stalling in the interim.

The elevating Roof section is made of Aluminium Alloy.

Rust is an iron oxide, usually red oxide formed by the redox reaction of iron and oxygen in the presence of water or air moisture. Several forms of rust are distinguishable both visually and by spectroscopy, and form under different circumstances.[1] Rust consists of hydrated iron(III) oxides Fe2O3·nH2O and iron(III) oxide-hydroxide (FeO(OH), Fe(OH)3).

Given sufficient time, oxygen, and water, any iron mass will eventually convert entirely to rust and disintegrate. Surface rust is flaky and friable, and it provides no protection to the underlying iron, unlike the formation of patina on copper surfaces. Rusting is the common term for corrosion of iron and its alloys, such as steel. Many other metals undergo equivalent corrosion, but the resulting oxides are not commonly called rust.

I am no expert on Aluminium Corrosion, but my reading and information from others would point towards some form of Galvanic Corrosion as the cause and the failure of the Painting process to provide adequate insulation to prevent this process.
The fact that you had this problem within weeks of delivery points to this, as my 2014 vehicle has no evidence , as yet, of any corrosion.

On the Land Rover Defender it was a not uncommon problem, especially on the painted Panel Edges and Seams, exactly the same place on the California Roof, as it is much more difficult to get a 100% paint seal/finish on an edge than a panel.

The one thing this problem is not, is Rust. It might seem pedantic but we should be very clear and use the correct term. If Rust is present in this position then it must have come from the Steel within the Rubber Seal and would not effect the alloy roof.

 

[Digger]

no problem

This situation re T6 is outrageous. I am resigned to it on my T5. To carry over on to the T6 is unbelievable.

However whereas with the T5 VW could offer the impression "we have fixed it and problem solved with the new T6 with all problems solved" with it now occurring on the T6 their is an opportunity to tarnish their marketing. Unless it hurts them where it counts they will continue to treat their customers with contempt.

There is a class action being undertaken by a firm of solicitors in England against VW for the emissions scandal. Might be worth considering that they be contacted to take on board a similar action re the roof issue?

 

[Ambler]

Well I agree it was not rust, just bubbling of the paintwork under the rubber seal.
Whatever the cause, it is a sellers market (i.e. VW) and it looks like we will have to put up with it or go elsewhere.

 

[larrylamb]

Watchdog need to know this is affecting virtually brand new T6 vehicles not just older Calis.

 

[Ambler]

There is a class action being undertaken by a firm of solicitors in England against VW for the emissions scandal. Might be worth considering that they be contacted to take on board a similar action re the roof issue?

It is my understanding that you have to prove some sort of loss for an action to be successful.
Until I sell I don't know whether I will or not.

 

[Digger]

It is my understanding that you have to prove some sort of loss for an action to be successful.
Until I sell I don't know whether I will or not.

Unsure of this as to the best of my knowledge no owner involved has proven loss. Trade in values and excise duty have not been effected. As far as roof issue is concerned loss of amenity and delays surely constitute loss. Maybe a legal bod can clarify.

 

[WelshGas]

May I congratulate you on having the courage to check your T6.
My commiserations at find the dreaded bubbles.

You can now look forward to a very long wait for an ineffective repair and when that fails repeat the process until your warranty runs out and then pay for any further repairs.

A lot of people who are sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "la la la la" isn't going to get this problem sorted out, all it does is allow VW to carry on selling a defective vehicle, albeit cosmetic, knowing full well it corrode shortly after manufacture.

My original T5 and now my rejected T6 are both on the forecourt and on the VW website for sale ready for the next starry eyed sap to purchase.

Caveat emptor.

I totally agree, the people digging their heads in the sand are not doing themselves or other members any favours for more than one reason.

1. VW needs to know this is a problem with the T6 as just one or two reports will go unnoticed

2. If you leave it until the near date of your warranty expiring you will be in the same boat as everyone is now with a 2-3 year wait to get it fixed, by then the bubbles will have spread way past the rubber seal.

3. By not reporting it, what happens if you decide to sell early? First thing a buyer will look for is corrosion, if they find it they will knock £££'s off the asking price.

When I implored people who had this problem to register with the BBC programme Watchdog, we got to a grand total of 67 before the Series started. It has now increased a little but basically too few too late.

https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/thread...hdog-when-did-you-last-check-your-roof.15804/

There seems to be a lot of heated debate, a lot of comments but concerted action - not a lot.

Someone suggested a mass rally to VWUK at Milton Keynes with Press Coverage. Good idea, but unless hundreds turned up VW wouldn't take notice and I'm sorry to say but going on past performance if we got a Bakers Dozen we would be lucky.

What about a Group Action - No win No Fee Lawyers? After all VW recognise the problem - they have a repair process that doesn't work, so the evidence is there. Anyone prepared to start the ball rolling? Deafening silence.

When the time comes to sell my SE will probably have done 100,000 miles so I'll tart it up and sell into the trade, preferably to VW, so they can sort it out. In the meantime I'll just enjoy it because that's why I bought it, not because it depreciates less than other camper vans but because it does what I want it to do. Just the same as my Defender with a similar problem, it did what I wanted at the time.

@snowy55 has made a stand, anyone else prepared to take this forward? I hope so, but I doubt it, we'll probably end up with another 200 page + thread but no action.

Rant over - back to packing for my trip to Aussie land.

 

[zerofour]

I'm appalled to hear that VW don't seem to have fixed this issue – especially as we have a new T6 on order.

After cleaning my cars one thing that I do is dry around the areas where the rubbers come into contact with the paintwork. My experience from owning 1970s/80s british made cars is that this is an area prone to corrosion due to the moisture being permanently trapped there. That said, with better paint and galvanized panels I have never had a problem on cars from mid-90s onwards.

I'm surprised this corrosion is happening on vehicles only a few months old – am I correct is saying that the corrosion seems to be coming from under the paint rather than from damage to the paint then moisture ingress? If it is paint damage (possibly when the vehicle was built) are these vehicles kept outside in coastal areas with salty air?

 

[kaf2546]

Having just nicely taken ownership of a T6 Cali this does cause me concern.
In the past I worked as for a large pipeline company in their Corrosion Control section, it is nearly 20 years since, but the basics of galvanic corrosion haven’t changed.

Referring back to MattBWs comment “Most vehicles that have aluminium bodies use a sacrificial anode (or cathode) to prevent this. VW for some reason haven't...”

To find a material that will corrode in preference to aluminium you would have to use something like magnesium or calcium, the latter not really being suitable for other reasons, you also have to find a location where the sacrificial anode can be placed and happily corrode and protect the structure it is protecting. Fine for ships where you can bolt large lumps of magnesium on the hull and an electric current can flow through the sea water (electrolyte) to protect all the structure. Or through the ground (electrolyte) to protect buried steel work.
With a Cali roof it is difficult to maintain the structure in the electrolyte so the Cathodic protection would work is a bit of a non starter.

Referring to Snowy55s comments about the high zinc content primer. - Were the garage trying to suggest this would protect the roof?
I hope not because Zinc is often used in primers for steel, to protect a bit like old fashioned galvanising, unfortunately when you study the electric potentials of metals, often measured against a Cu/CuSO4 half cell, you have the figures Iron&steel +0.44Volts, Zinc +0.76 Volts, Aluminium +1.30 Volts, and Magnesium +1.87 Volts. You use a metal with a higher voltage to protect one with a lower voltage, so the Aluminium would be trying to protect any zinc in the paint.

It should also be noted that bending and shaping of metals can cause minute differences in the electrical properties of the metal leading to localised corrosion.

I feel from the information I have read so far there is an issue with moisture getting trapped and leading to small cells for possible corrosion. This is possibly aggravated by the steel in the rubber seal, but not necessarily.
Because of this there is no guarantee that replacing the seal with a metal free one would cause the problem to go away.

Could the problem be designed out by any other method? possibly but at the moment the only option I can think of would be a Fibreglass or Carbon Fibre roof.

Is that a feasible option - I don’t know, but I suspect probably not as I don’t know how well they would cope if the Cali got rolled, (can’t remember whose photos showed their poorly Cali).
That then leaves the other option a steel roof, which may be OK for those of us with a powered roof but it may well be too heavy for those with a manual roof.

It is a very frustrating situation.

Would I change from a T6 Cali because of this NO, in my opinion the T6 Cali beats all competitors

Sorry about the science lesson

Could the bungee folk come up with a carbon fibre roof with integrated bellows to retrofit in 6 years time, I would pay 3-5k for this if it extended life of van even a few years - meanwhile I'm not going to worry about but use it to the max and stick on an even bigger mileage than 25k a year because it won't matter anyway now and we're a 'lang time deid'