Increased Oil Consumption Problem (2010 T5 Cali 180 bhp)

[calicasas]

Disagree all you like, we are all entitled to our own opinions. Most of this entire discussion revolves around people's opinions, yours included. I refer to your earlier statement where you described the cause (rather than the POSSIBLE cause) as the cylinder bores becoming oval. Do you have any evidence of this? My comment that the cylinder bores might be manufactured slightly oval was obviously speculative, and not a statement of fact! I thought that was clear. There are obviously manufacturing tolerances involved that may not be adhered to.

I never at any point said the VW TPIs were the "internet chatter" - you are being manipulative to reinforce your own personal opinion. Is it not obvious what internet chatter is? We are creating it ourselves.

Tell me which TPIs explain the CAUSE of the problem, rather than just the effect.

Where is it stated that aluminium oxide can bind to the piston rings?

Where and when have VW ever disclosed that the source of the high oil consumption problem is the EGR cooler?

Plenty of info and photos around on Facebook forum pages. Engine wear is REAL, affecting a multitude of engines and a case is being put forward to VW as we speak. Bear in mind VW won't admit / accept anything until pressed. It took them a long time and a lot of pressure from many affected individuals to accept and begin repairing the roof corrosion issue.
That's my tuppence worth... happy days

 

[deccauk]

Anyone else have published results for comparison?

My results in the post before yours.

Do you have high oil consumption?

 

[calicasas]

My results in the post before yours.

Do you have high oil consumption?

I have not had to fill with any oil in 7,000 + miles so can't warrant taking the Cali for possible oil consumption test. I thought I would start with the oil test.
Considering EGR removal as possible solution. Go for oil change and retest oil next year to assess change as compared this year. If the engines on its way out, it's on its way out. EGR block should at least (hopefully) slow any engine wear.

 

[briwy]

Thought it was illegal to remove the EGR as it messes up the emissions.

 

[deccauk]

Further to my earlier post (number112) where I reported the benefits that a member of the german TX forum had experienced after replacing his EGR with a type D, I have seen the current TX forum spreadsheet which includes his data.

The figures he quoted were as follows:

===============================
Here again summarized my values ??per 1,000 km running performance:

Sample before change, iron 11.62, aluminum 27.12
1. Sample thereafter, iron 5.37, aluminum 6.64
2. Sample thereafter, iron 4.92, aluminum 4.06
===============================

It turns out that those figures are not ppm, but are ppm per 1000km of usage on the oil.

His actual oil analysis data from the spreadsheet is as follows (mileage in km):

Van mileage / Oil Mileage / Iron ppm / Aluminium ppm
53,925 / 4,646 / 54 / 126
64,109 / 3,913 / 21 / 26
68,020 / 3,447 / 17 / 14

Assuming he changed the oil when he replaced the EGR, the EGR change would have been at 60,196km.

That is a rather spectacular reduction in aluminium...

 

[veg_frenzy]

BTW I found this graphic useful to understand stuff. The EGR valve is to the right of course:

I'm sure that a faulty EGR would throw up a fault code either on the VW or VCDS diagnostic. Also a warning light on the dash.
Why would excessive exhaust gasses be passing the piston rings in the first place? Surely the purpose of piston rings is to provide a seal between piston and cylinder so unless the rings are worn to start with this shouldn't happen.
Not decrying the theory but it just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

ref #123....I've got my expert to document the theory far more articulately....will post when ready.....all to do with ring 'blow by'.

 

[cpjb@btinternet.com]

I'm wondering whether the title of this thread should be updated to alert this potential issue to owners of the T5 180 engine. I never really delved into the thread until yesterday thinking that the subject of the thread was 2010 Cali's. Now I'm a little concerned, as I was hoping to run my Cali into the ground. That ground may come a lot sooner than I expected.

This thread has only 120 posts compared to the T5 roof corrosion thread which has over 3000. Also there are almost as many views for the new seat covers thread as this thread.

As someone pointed out this issue is potentially extremely more impacting than the roof corrosion issue, and surely people ought to be made aware of it at least so they can make up there own mind as to any action they want to take. Maybe permission ought to be sought by admin to change the title to something like "Possible Shorter Life Expectancy of the T5 180bhp Engine" or something similar?

 

[deccauk]

I'm wondering whether the title of this thread should be updated to alert this potential issue to owners of the T5 180 engine. I never really delved into the thread until yesterday thinking that the subject of the thread was 2010 Cali's. Now I'm a little concerned, as I was hoping to run my Cali into the ground. That ground may come a lot sooner than I expected.

If it turns out that EGR coolers prior to version D are to blame (the jury is still out), it will affect vehicles right through to late 2015.

 

[B J G]

I'm sure that a faulty EGR would throw up a fault code either on the VW or VCDS diagnostic. Also a warning light on the dash.
Why would excessive exhaust gasses be passing the piston rings in the first place? Surely the purpose of piston rings is to provide a seal between piston and cylinder so unless the rings are worn to start with this shouldn't happen.
Not decrying the theory but it just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

Theory is that a faulty EGR lets excessive carbons back into the engines internal area. This then causes the oil film on cylinder bores to break down causing loss of lubrication between the cylinder walls and piston rings. Ensuing friction causing ring and bore wear leading to compression loss and oil consumption increase.
Vicious downward spiral.

 

[briwy]

Is the 140 engine fitted with a different EGR valve? Seems a bit odd that it appears to be only the 180 engines that are affected. As far as I'm aware all the 2L diesels share the same bottom end, just different turbos and mapping.

 

[deccauk]

Is the 140 engine fitted with a different EGR valve? Seems a bit odd that it appears to be only the 180 engines that are affected. As far as I'm aware all the 2L diesels share the same bottom end, just different turbos and mapping.

The 140 is different and doesn't suffer from this problem. Three of these type had sumitted oil analysis results to the TX forum, and the aluminium ppm values were 20, 21 and 22. The oil samples had all done over 15,000km.

 

[briwy]

That's why I asked the question. Is the EGR valve different?

 

[snowy55]

Is the EGR valve different?

The EGR on the 140 is on the back of the engine and can be changed in 40 mins on the drive, as mine was on a 140 Kombi, the 180 is on the front of the engine and needs all the front bodywork, radiator and intercooler taking off.

 

[deccauk]

EGR on 140:


EGR on 180:

 

[Looby]

I'm wondering whether the title of this thread should be updated to alert this potential issue to owners of the T5 180 engine. I never really delved into the thread until yesterday thinking that the subject of the thread was 2010 Cali's. Now I'm a little concerned, as I was hoping to run my Cali into the ground. That ground may come a lot sooner than I expected.

This thread has only 120 posts compared to the T5 roof corrosion thread which has over 3000. Also there are almost as many views for the new seat covers thread as this thread.

As someone pointed out this issue is potentially extremely more impacting than the roof corrosion issue, and surely people ought to be made aware of it at least so they can make up there own mind as to any action they want to take. Maybe permission ought to be sought by admin to change the title to something like "Possible Shorter Life Expectancy of the T5 180bhp Engine" or something similar?

I agree, the thread lay almost dormant from Oct 16 till Feb 17. I only read it because Veg Frenzy had posted then and our van is the same age as his. To be honest, I expected someone to tell him that it didn't apply to vans of our year 2014, ours hasn't ever needed us to add any oil. Now I can see that it could be a future issue and although I really wish that wasn't the case, I do prefer to know about it.

Can I ask those who have had oil samples tested as a precaution (the one to show metal pollution in the oil, not the one for increased oil consumption) did you order the Millers kit online and do it yourself or did you take the van independent garage? I would need someone to post an idiots guide for me.

 

[deccauk]

Can I ask those who have had oil samples tested as a precaution (the one to show metal pollution in the oil, not the one for increased oil consumption) did you order the Millers kit online and do it yourself or did you take the van independent garage? I would need someone to post an idiots guide for me.

I ordered it online. They supply an 80ml container and a return envelope. I sucked the oil out of the dipstick hole with a syringe and a tube.

Use something like this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Home-Kit...-plastic-tubing/B013QO8MKQ/?tag=eliteelect-21

 

[briwy]

Theory is that a faulty EGR lets excessive carbons back into the engines internal area. This then causes the oil film on cylinder bores to break down causing loss of lubrication between the cylinder walls and piston rings. Ensuing friction causing ring and bore wear leading to compression loss and oil consumption increase.
Vicious downward spiral.

Possibly, I agree that if carbon builds up on the cylinder walls it's bad news. However, if the EGR was faulty and open all the time allowing excessive gasses into the combustion chambers why did this not come up as a fault on the dash. Canbus systems nowadays are clever enough to actually check that sensors are doing their job correctly, ie if a sensor isn't working then the canbus will register it and throw up a fault.
There is always a small ammount of blow by in any engine as the piston rings have gaps in them and are a loose fit in the piston grooves. As the piston goes up pressure pushes the piston ring down in the groove allowing gas into the top of the groove. As the piston goes down the ring then gets pushed to the top of the groove allowing the the trapped gas to pass by. For this to get excessive there would have to be either faulty manufacture initially or wear due to whatever factor.
Chicken and egg I guess. Whatever the cause it's obviously not good news.

 

[deccauk]

It is interesting that most of the debate I have read about the update to the D version revolves around what might have changed within the EGR cooler - possible changes to the geometry of the internal cooling vanes, maybe a different alloy, maybe a coating of some kind, all resulting in lower values of aluminium contamination. However, there is also a reduction in iron contamination. I have not seen any discussion which explains this. Perhaps the EGR valve itself may also have been improved in some way. There is also some evidence that when a new cooler is fitted (by VW), there is a software update to the ECU.

 

[WelshGas]

It is interesting that most of the debate I have read about the update to the D version revolves around what might have changed within the EGR cooler - possible changes to the geometry of the internal cooling vanes, maybe a different alloy, maybe a coating of some kind, all resulting in lower values of aluminium contamination. However, there is also a reduction in iron contamination. I have not seen any discussion which explains this. Perhaps the EGR valve itself may also have been improved in some way. There is also some evidence that when a new cooler is fitted (by VW), there is a software update to the ECU.

Correct as regards the Software Update.

 

[calicasas]

I'm wondering whether the title of this thread should be updated to alert this potential issue to owners of the T5 180 engine. I never really delved into the thread until yesterday thinking that the subject of the thread was 2010 Cali's. Now I'm a little concerned, as I was hoping to run my Cali into the ground. That ground may come a lot sooner than I expected.

This thread has only 120 posts compared to the T5 roof corrosion thread which has over 3000. Also there are almost as many views for the new seat covers thread as this thread.

As someone pointed out this issue is potentially extremely more impacting than the roof corrosion issue, and surely people ought to be made aware of it at least so they can make up there own mind as to any action they want to take. Maybe permission ought to be sought by admin to change the title to something like "Possible Shorter Life Expectancy of the T5 180bhp Engine" or something similar?

I agree with your comments wholeheartedly, but I don't think they will change the title after all this is negative publicity for the California, which for obvious reasons the forum won't support. All we can do is just keep pressing to ensure that the word gets out to as many people as possible. Anyone asking me about the camper on campsites will now get my honest "don't trust the engine" answer..

 

[calicasas]

Further to my earlier post (number112) where I reported the benefits that a member of the german TX forum had experienced after replacing his EGR with a type D, I have seen the current TX forum spreadsheet which includes his data.

The figures he quoted were as follows:

===============================
Here again summarized my values ??per 1,000 km running performance:

Sample before change, iron 11.62, aluminum 27.12
1. Sample thereafter, iron 5.37, aluminum 6.64
2. Sample thereafter, iron 4.92, aluminum 4.06
===============================

It turns out that those figures are not ppm, but are ppm per 1000km of usage on the oil.

His actual oil analysis data from the spreadsheet is as follows (mileage in km):

Van mileage / Oil Mileage / Iron ppm / Aluminium ppm
53,925 / 4,646 / 54 / 126
64,109 / 3,913 / 21 / 26
68,020 / 3,447 / 17 / 14

Assuming he changed the oil when he replaced the EGR, the EGR change would have been at 60,196km.
The values you show are interesting.
That is a rather spectacular reduction in aluminium...

My Miller oil analysis doesn't specify the values are per 1000km travelled, nor does it specify that the maximum expected ALU of 30 ppm are per 1000km. The maximum values Quoted were the expected values for km I had travelled and so my sample values considerably exceed the maximum required values of ALU expected. I only carried out the single sample test, quoting mileage since last oil change etc...

 

[calicasas]

.

 

[BerndRos]

It is interesting that most of the debate I have read about the update to the D version revolves around what might have changed within the EGR cooler - possible changes to the geometry of the internal cooling vanes, maybe a different alloy, maybe a coating of some kind, all resulting in lower values of aluminium contamination. However, there is also a reduction in iron contamination. I have not seen any discussion which explains this. Perhaps the EGR valve itself may also have been improved in some way. There is also some evidence that when a new cooler is fitted (by VW), there is a software update to the ECU.

When I had my new engine and EGR fitted it also had a software update. The VW garage explained to me that this would alter the power curve slightly, so that the engine had less 'punch' to it. Can't say I have really noticed, however I had to run the engine in, and after that I am now tending to drive less sporty than before.

 

[deccauk]

Anyone asking me about the camper on campsites will now get my honest "don't trust the engine" answer..

...or the roof.

Are you listening, Volkswagen?

 

[pjm-84]

Volkswagen don't listen!

Off to look at my EGR - May 2015 build. What's your bets?