Increased Oil Consumption Problem (2010 T5 Cali 180 bhp)

[T6 CFO]

We have a 2014 180 4 Motion so I'm mildly interested in this situation.
One thing I have mentioned before is the use of cheap supermarket fuel. I'm fully aware that all fuel has to conform to certain minimum standards but there is no doubt that whilst it may make no noticable difference to the way the engine runs it will most certainly make a difference to its longevity including associated components like EGRs.
Before having Californias we had Mazda Bongos, all diesels and whilst the Bongo engine is old design compared to the Calis the principle is the same with the EGR. If we ever used cheap fuel the EGR would throw a wobbler and the van would go into limp mode. A tankful of branded fuel always cured it. I don't understand how anyone spends upwards of £50k and then won't spend a few more pence on decent fuel which will clean the engine more efficiently.
We are now on our seventh VW diesel and have always had the oil changed yearly at least, depending on the mileage, never had a problem with some of them doing 150k and still going like a train.
IMO long term servicing is just asking for trouble.

I remember that thread and as a result downloaded the POI files for shell service stations and only use Shell.
I've got two free services as part of a goodwill gesture so as my Cali is currently telling me this:-

I may well get just an interim oil and filter change done outside of the free ones.


Mike

 

[deccauk]

Yes it was on long life service, had the first oil change carried out at my request after about 10000 miles at Faro, Portugal. But by the time I had driven up through Europe and into the Czech Republic (about 4000 miles covered) it went into limp mode and VW there fitted a new EGR under warranty. No idea of the version.

Then the Oil thirst issues kicked in during 2015 while I was in Germany. Van had 40K something on the clock. That garage at Trier had themselves fitted a fair few new engines and were well aware of the problem.

That's very worrying. So you had an oil change at 10,000, a new EGR (type unknown) at 14,000, a second oil change I presume at about 24,000 and you STILL needed a new engine.

Probably not a type D EGR, but nevertheless the EGR corrosion clock was effectively reset to zero.

Was it just two oil changes altogether on the failed engine?

 

[veg_frenzy]

Just had an interesting chat with the dealer, regarding my EGR cooler unit (p/n 03L 115 512 A, 19/FEB/14). I asked for a quote to replace said part with the "D" suffix version. He seemed confused as why I was requesting the "D" suffix version as the manufacture date of the fitted part was 19/FEB/2014 - implying that it should be the most up to date technology (Cali registered in APR/2014). Interesting position!
I discussed with my colleagues over lunch, to surmise what might be happening with use of the suffix. Conclusion was that as VW will have several manufacturers for this EGR part, maybe not all of them are manufacturing the "D" suffix, as their facilities have yet to be upgraded (i.e. some will still be manufacturing the "A" suffix part), even as late as FEB/2014.
Anyone have any views on this or better still, actual data as to where and for how long the various parts were manufactured?
A slightly more cynical (but understandable business approach by VW) was that "pre D" suffix parts have been directed to Calis as they know these have lower mileage, so issues would present themselves outside of warranty period!!!!!!!!! Says one thing to me....."get out there abd use the Cali far more....joy"

 

[BerndRos]

That's very worrying. So you had an oil change at 10,000, a new EGR (type unknown) at 14,000, a second oil change I presume at about 24,000 and you STILL needed a new engine.

Probably not a type D EGR, but nevertheless the EGR corrosion clock was effectively reset to zero.

Was it just two oil changes altogether on the failed engine?

All correct. And there was another oil change at lowish 40K miles.

The only irregular thing I can say about my use of the van, is that for a couple of years when it had about 40K on the clock it was garaged and barely used apart from the odd short drive. No idea if that could have caused harm.

 

[deccauk]

All correct. And there was another oil change at lowish 40K miles.

The only irregular thing I can say about my use of the van, is that for a couple of years when it had about 40K on the clock it was garaged and barely used apart from the odd short drive. No idea if that could have caused harm.

Might the EGR type be noted in the service record?

If it was a type D, we're doomed...

 

[BerndRos]

Might the EGR type be noted in the service record?

If it was a type D, we're doomed...

Post 76 here by AlanC gives some info re dates. He says 'D ' came out in July 16, although my new engine fitted in January 16 has a 'D' fitted.

Anyway my replacement EGR on the old engine was fitted in summer 2011 and I think we can be sure that 'D' was not being fitted back then.

 

[2into1]

When I searched the part number on Google, from memory several different manufacturers (of the component) came up in the results.
I was also expecting to find that the part had also been used on different vw group vehicles, but that wasn't the case.

 

[lostontheshore]

I thought this issue was for pre 2012 180's down to an engine build fault The EGR issue coming up later
Question are there 180's using high oil use built post 2011 I had an T5 transporter built 2012 sold when 65k on clock with A EGR only oily used was 1/2 litre between long life oil changes which I am sure would not have even shown if oil changed yearly. !80's the price is going to slump and have no value if all 180 engines are going to fail, Glad I so but not an issue when trading in to VW.

 

[AlanC]

I think there may be some confusion about VW's Technical Product Information or TPI.

If a TPI has been issued in response to, say, high oil consumption on the CFCA engine, then we, the owners, are inclined to think it is VW indicating there is a problem, providing a formal procedure for a cure/repair and thereby acknowledging and accepting the fault is down to VW.

I don't think they see a TPI in this way at all.

As I understand it, these documents are issued by VW to the franchisees and thereby the dealer network when a certain procedure has to be complied with, maybe due to a common problem that has arisen in a number of vehicles, when technical information needs to be disseminated around the dealers, or when updated components need to be retro fitted on a call back.

I have been told there is no acknowledgement of fault or blame with these documents and can be issued with as few as 5 vehicles having the same issue.

If you want the work to be warrantied (for 2 years in the case of the replacement CFCA engine) then it is important that the repair follows the relevant TPI, if one has been issued.

Alan

 

[larrylamb]

Just had an interesting chat with the dealer, regarding my EGR cooler unit (p/n 03L 115 512 A, 19/FEB/14). I asked for a quote to replace said part with the "D" suffix version. He seemed confused as why I was requesting the "D" suffix version as the manufacture date of the fitted part was 19/FEB/2014 - implying that it should be the most up to date technology (Cali registered in APR/2014). Interesting position!
I discussed with my colleagues over lunch, to surmise what might be happening with use of the suffix. Conclusion was that as VW will have several manufacturers for this EGR part, maybe not all of them are manufacturing the "D" suffix, as their facilities have yet to be upgraded (i.e. some will still be manufacturing the "A" suffix part), even as late as FEB/2014.
Anyone have any views on this or better still, actual data as to where and for how long the various parts were manufactured?
A slightly more cynical (but understandable business approach by VW) was that "pre D" suffix parts have been directed to Calis as they know these have lower mileage, so issues would present themselves outside of warranty period!!!!!!!!! Says one thing to me....."get out there abd use the Cali far more....joy"

I believe people with 2014/15 T5 biturbo vans have been finding "A" suffix EGR's fitted so it is a lottery, like you say probably parts sourced from different suppliers etc. I doubt they will be fitting them now as I'm sure VW know these early EGR are causing problems. A lot of people are checking their EGR part numbers on newer vans and contemplating changing them if pre "D" suffix.
Worth having the VW health check especially if you are nearing the end of your warranty. A chap on the Facebook forum has just done this and VW found a "sticking Valve" in the EGR so are replacing it under warranty for a new "D" suffix EGR. He is very pleased to say the least but you have got to wonder whether VW are changing these deliberately as damage limitation.
It is worth following the Facebook page as it is growing quickly and they are definitely making plans for group action etc against VW and getting this fault officially recognised.

 

[AlanC]

Post 76 here by AlanC gives some info re dates. He says 'D ' came out in July 16, although my new engine fitted in January 16 has a 'D' fitted.

That would be my mistake, a 'D' suffix is certainly 2016 but could have been introduced earlier than July. Mine is July 16.

I think all the labels I have seen have all had the same Pierburg manufacturer's name on them.

Alan

 

[deccauk]

That would be my mistake, a 'D' suffix is certainly 2016 but could have been introduced earlier than July. Mine is July 16.

I think all the labels I have seen have all had the same Pierburg manufacturer's name on them.

Alan

I spent all last night reading all 5600 posts on the German forum about this issue. They quote November 2015 as the likely release of the type D. Subsequently, the fitting of previous version was disallowed. Here are some images of their label:



In this next image, he has tried to illuminate the interior of the cooler:



Two members of that forum have cut open their coolers.

The first:




These after cleaning it with solvents:



The second seems more corroded:





Like here, the entire debate is focused on the EGR cooler being the culprit. There are a few dissenting voices, but not many. One reported that his dealer stated that the failing engines were poorly manufactured, but that view was largely dimissed.

However, I found a ray of hope. One single user (post 4339 on page 217) installed a type D cooler at his own expense at about 50,000km and reported the following (Google translated):

-------------------

The first oil check after changing the EGR cooler to version D had brought significant improvements.
Then I made another oil change and now get the results of the 2nd oil analysis.
The values ??per 1,000 km have again been slightly reduced in the case of iron and greatly reduced in the case of aluminum.

My confidence now increases that the engine does not soon end. He should get fresh oil in the near future at shorter intervals.

Here again summarized my values ??per 1,000 km running performance:

Sample before change, iron 11.62, aluminum 27.12
1. Sample thereafter, iron 5.37, aluminum 6.64
2. Sample thereafter, iron 4.92, aluminum 4.06

-------------------

I believe that these figures are ppm (reported as mg/kg in their oil tests). I'm not sure of the exact figures, but there were a few thousand kilometers between each test.

Although no one over there, like here, knows definitively what causes the problem, this is the first quantitative evidence I have seen that demonstrates that installing a type D cooler is beneficial.

Make of it what you will...

 

[2into1]

Good report. I'm puzzled why this one has a sticker over the part number and suffix.

 

[deccauk]

Good report. I'm puzzled why this one has a sticker over the part number and suffix.

I think it was sourced independently, not from VW.

 

[AlanC]

Well done Deccauk. A very valiant effort, I am impressed.

Interesting to note the corrosion to the old coolers, I have seen similar images on the Facebook page.

Alan

 

[deccauk]

Well done Deccauk. A very valiant effort, I am impressed.

Interesting to note the corrosion to the old coolers, I have seen similar images on the Facebook page.

Alan

Still not sure how to proceed. I am awaiting results of my oil analysis from Millers. If it is bad, there is nothing more to do except await failure. If it is good, I shall have to decide whether to plod on and hope for the best or have a D cooler fitted. It's about £1600 unfortunately from a VW dealer.

 

[briwy]

So how do you establish what version of the valve is fitted to your van?

 

[Meoncoast]

So how do you establish what version of the valve is fitted to your van?

printed on a sticker by oil filter

 

[briwy]

printed on a sticker by oil filter

OK, thanks

 

[briwy]

Oh well, got the A type .

Just wondering if apart from using decent fuel if letting the engine tick over for a few minutes after it has been working hard has any effect on this. Well known that it helps keep the turbo from premature failure as it keeps the oil circulating to prevent latent heat in the turbo carbonising the oil.
Some of the old Bongos had a shutdown delay to do just this. It had to be disconnected here though.

 

[AlanC]

It is always good advice to let any turbo charged engine tick over for a minute or more before switching the engine off. As you have said, it allows oils to circulate around the bearings of the turbo, lubricating and cooling them and going some way to preventing early failure. I do it on both the Cali and our Saab.

Can't comment on the EGR!

Alan

 

[veg_frenzy]

Ok. Latest from my investigations.
I have some oil additive company connections, so have consulted my contacts re the alleged EGR issues. Their theory (which I buy into), is that the engine wear issue is most likely caused by a the EGR value sticking open all the time. This is effect means there are exhaust gases bypassing the piston rings at 100% flow, all the time vs. the 30% design basis. As such, this depletes the oil additives far quicker than expected (e.g. TBN), building up deposits in the oil, which then irreversibly cause the cylinder lining wear. Thus greater oil burn, etc. etc. So, not a cooler corrosion issue per se. A downward spiral for sure!
Another theory I guess, which may/may not be valid, but leads me to the following steps (not particularly in order):
- get oil analysis done: sample taken and shipped today. I know what the metals/TBN should be for new oil, so will be able to see impact of ~ 4k miles only since last change (should last ~ 24k miles). if there is depletion, I will be back to VW to explain why.
- EGR error codes: need to understand if the ECU has any, what they are and what they mean. hopefully there is one in there that identified EGR valve position. any one have any intelligence on this.
- can EGR valve be replaced easy: or at least cheaper than the replacement of the whole EGR unit. I bet not as it's tricky to get to it.
- VWCS: had a follow-up email from them asking if I was happy (guess the answer). they will be getting a missive re the inconsistency in approach to diagnostics from various dealers, particularly on price.

Any latest theories/facts/advise from the collective Cali intelligence on this? Thanks.

 

[briwy]

I'm sure that a faulty EGR would throw up a fault code either on the VW or VCDS diagnostic. Also a warning light on the dash.
Why would excessive exhaust gasses be passing the piston rings in the first place? Surely the purpose of piston rings is to provide a seal between piston and cylinder so unless the rings are worn to start with this shouldn't happen.
Not decrying the theory but it just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

 

[deccauk]

Any latest theories/facts/advise from the collective Cali intelligence on this? Thanks.

My understanding is that the EGR valve is closed at idle or when accelerating. If stuck open, I suspect the engine would be difficult to start. If the EGR was stuck open but not under power (accelerating), there would be low NOx but high soot levels which could (allegedly) contaminate the piston rings (not my theory).

I have had the results of my oil analysis. Aluminium is 59ppm and iron is 21ppm after 4000 miles on the oil and 38000 on the van. A little high but not outrageous. I have looked at numerous oil analysis results, and that figure is one of the lowest. Some have over 200ppm of aluminium!

After reading all the posts on the German TX forum, I am starting to wonder if the engine wear MAY be accelerated by driving conditions and/or driving style. I am not disputing that the EGR cooler is part of the problem, more that the conditions that it is subject to may play a part.

The Norwegian ambulance issue, for example, involves cold starts (in a cold environment), followed presumably by hard driving. There is also mention on that forum of a fire brigade in Germany with similar issues - a very large proportion of vehicles required new engines. All there scenarios also involve relatively short journeys.

I have zero oil consumption at the moment, and my van is not a daily driver and rarely used for short journeys. It has been to Italy on one trip and Spain on another. Other than that, most trips are in excess of 50 miles.

Food for thought?

 

[calicasas]

I'm not convinced that it is even the EGR causing the problem. It's all too anecdotal. The internet chatter is all focusing on the fact that any EGR cooler prior to the D revision will eventually bite you in the backside, but there seems to be no hard evidence to prove it. It merely seems to revolve around the fact that the D version is the latest, therefore that version must be OK.

I'm more inclined to favour the theory that some early engines were poorly manufactured with slightly oval cylinder bores, causing premature piston ring wear. That, combined with the long life servicing regime, will eventually cause problems. I just cannot believe that oil contaminated with a tiny amount of aluminium (200 ppm or thereabouts in the worst cases) can cause that much damage to cast iron cylinder bores, particularly if the oil is changed at least annually.

Well, just had my analysis back at 273 ppm ALU with max expected of 30 ppm! This is direct from Millers Oils. I also have high IRON content of 140 ppm where no more than 100 ppm would be expected. Bear in mind that I have only covered 7,200 since my last oil change, so it doesn't look brilliant from here...
Anyone else have published results for comparison?