The New All electric California due in Autumn 2019. What are you thoughts?

[mountainman]

Use my Cali mostly in Scotland, rarely in campsites, usually quite remote. 20 miles down a single track dead end. No charging points in these places, no mobile phone signal, no 4G and more importantly, no one else! I haven't read the details but I can only imagine the heating is also electric? In the winter I do rely on my heater so I can imagine there would be quite a disincentive for using electrical power for heat when one is 40 miles from a charging point after a long journey. If they have gas heaters, well, that would be a bit counter to the e thing, wouldn't it? We need to prevent the world from choking to death, sure. But I don't think I'm ready for an elecytric Cali until the capability has improved quite a bit.

 

[Bellcrew]

Use my Cali mostly in Scotland, rarely in campsites, usually quite remote. 20 miles down a single track dead end. No charging points in these places, no mobile phone signal, no 4G and more importantly, no one else! I haven't read the details but I can only imagine the heating is also electric? In the winter I do rely on my heater so I can imagine there would be quite a disincentive for using electrical power for heat when one is 40 miles from a charging point after a long journey. If they have gas heaters, well, that would be a bit counter to the e thing, wouldn't it? We need to prevent the world from choking to death, sure. But I don't think I'm ready for an elecytric Cali until the capability has improved quite a bit.

All combustion of hydrocarbons generates NOx, vast amounts of particulates are given off when you burn your toast etc even more dangerous cos it happens indoors.
Life expectancy is still increasing to levels that would amaze our forefathers, I am so confused.

 

[ArunAlec]

All combustion of hydrocarbons generates NOx, vast amounts of particulates are given off when you burn your toast etc even more dangerous cos it happens indoors.
Life expectancy is still increasing to levels that would amaze our forefathers, I am so confused.

I think the increasing life expectancy is down to advances in medical science. Despite all our life limiting conditions, including those caused by lifestyle, we are being kept alive well beyond our “natural” sell by date!

 

[kaf2546]

Use my Cali mostly in Scotland, rarely in campsites, usually quite remote. 20 miles down a single track dead end. No charging points in these places, no mobile phone signal, no 4G and more importantly, no one else! I haven't read the details but I can only imagine the heating is also electric? In the winter I do rely on my heater so I can imagine there would be quite a disincentive for using electrical power for heat when one is 40 miles from a charging point after a long journey. If they have gas heaters, well, that would be a bit counter to the e thing, wouldn't it? We need to prevent the world from choking to death, sure. But I don't think I'm ready for an elecytric Cali until the capability has improved quite a bit.

I'm same as you usually remote and diesel heater essential , I'd be swayed in future if they did hybrid with small back up combustion engine to too up battery and provide heating but they won't go that route ..

Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

 

[Tom Downie]

Hybrid.

One thing the powers that be have not considered is how people in houses with no off road parking are supposed to charge their vehicles, you will not be allowed to run an extension lead across the pavement, and that's if you can get a space outside your property. I have off road parking but a lot of people I know don't! Also I am unaware of any charging points in any of the public carparks in our area. So a hybrid makes a lot more sense so welsh gas I agree with you entirely that hybrid would have been a far better step.

 

[Quentin SF]

I'd love one of these, but I think it would need a bit of dedication at this stage. Forgive the essay, but this is a topic of great interest to me

I have been driving an electric car for three and a half years now, and for most of that time it was my only car. It's an i3, and it does have a range-extender engine, so I can add a bit of range with petrol if I want, but I probably turn that on less than once a month, and I've certainly averaged well over 1000 mpg since I've had it. I've done many longish trips on the battery alone (including to the Lake District and back from Cambridge twice), and mine's an early car with a battery range of about 70 miles, so it takes quite a few recharging stops! Long-distance travel is quite a bit slower, therefore, but I arrive feeling much less tired, more relaxed, and I'm sure it's much safer. Today’s cars like the Kia eNiro would make such journeys trivial. I sincerely hope those people saying they start their holiday with a 300-mile drive don’t do it without a rest! And, as a friend of mine puts it, what’s your bladder range anyway?

Just to deal with a couple of the points above, since I’ve been investigating this for quite a long time:

Yes, making electric cars does also have an environmental impact, but in general it’s much less than for fossil-burners. Batteries contain some toxic materials, but they are also much too valuable to be thrown away at the end of their lives. They become incorporated in home-based power packs, in grid-level storage, in electric boats, etc. Their lives are also much greater than most originally assumed; there are electric taxis which have done hundreds of thousands of miles. Don’t make any assumptions about battery life based on your electric toothbrush; it’s a very different world.

One concern about battery production at present should perhaps be that some of the metals — cobalt was mentioned above — are extracted in countries that have a dubious reputation. But that’s a temporary issue: there are many ways of making batteries, and this just happens to be the most efficient at present. We’ve already moved through several different technologies in last few decades and now, of course, there’s a huge incentive for anyone who comes up with new and better batteries. Many of the current prototypes do not depend on cobalt, for example.

Secondly, yes, of course you still need to generate the electricity and some of that process can be polluting. Even if the power is generated from fossil fuels, though, it’s nearly twice as efficient to do it in a power station than in a car. But the key thing is that by using electricity you then have the option to produce some of it using renewables; in the case of the UK, we produce rather a substantial proportion that way now. I buy all my electricity from a company that gets it purely from renewables, and mostly from hydroelectric power, so all my car driving for the last couple of years has been driven by Welsh rainwater. This appears to be plentiful!

So I’m an enthusiast, and I think it’s unlikely I will buy a car with a combustion engine again.

With my van, though, there is a thrill about filling up the tank and seeing a range of 650 miles (Not quite so much of a thrill about paying for the tankful afterwards!) And since my last long trip was to the Dordogne and back just before Christmas, I did have my trusty Webasto going almost all night every night, and I was wondering what I would do if the van were electric. In fact, of course, everywhere I stopped I had a hook-up, and I now have a little electric heater, so that wouldn’t be much of an issue unless I were staying a bit further off the grid.

Probably the perfect combination would be what I have in my car: a van that is mostly electric but with a few gallons of diesel for when you need them to extend the range or extend the heat.

And of course, if I were doing a long journey and did need to stop every few hours to charge, the van would be a great place to do it. You could make a coffee, have lunch, or even a short snooze while you topped up. It gives a whole new meaning to the phrase power-nap!

 

[ArunAlec]

One thing the powers that be have not considered is how people in houses with no off road parking are supposed to charge their vehicles, you will not be allowed to run an extension lead across the pavement, and that's if you can get a space outside your property. I have off road parking but a lot of people I know don't! Also I am unaware of any charging points in any of the public carparks in our area. So a hybrid makes a lot more sense so welsh gas I agree with you entirely that hybrid would have been a far better step.

I think the home charging practicalities will be a real challenge. If charging points are allowed on public pavements outside your house (assuming no off road parking) ...
The cost of laying the cable and reinstating the pavement. I recall the mess the cable TV companies made when laying fibre in towns.
What’s to stop others parking and blocking access to charging point.

 

[Bellcrew]

I'd love one of these, but I think it would need a bit of dedication at this stage. Forgive the essay, but this is a topic of great interest to me

I have been driving an electric car for three and a half years now, and for most of that time it was my only car. It's an i3, and it does have a range-extender engine, so I can add a bit of range with petrol if I want, but I probably turn that on less than once a month, and I've certainly averaged well over 1000 mpg since I've had it. I've done many longish trips on the battery alone (including to the Lake District and back from Cambridge twice), and mine's an early car with a battery range of about 70 miles, so it takes quite a few recharging stops! Long-distance travel is quite a bit slower, therefore, but I arrive feeling much less tired, more relaxed, and I'm sure it's much safer. Today’s cars like the Kia eNiro would make such journeys trivial. I sincerely hope those people saying they start their holiday with a 300-mile drive don’t do it without a rest! And, as a friend of mine puts it, what’s your bladder range anyway?

Just to deal with a couple of the points above, since I’ve been investigating this for quite a long time:

Yes, making electric cars does also have an environmental impact, but in general it’s much less than for fossil-burners. Batteries contain some toxic materials, but they are also much too valuable to be thrown away at the end of their lives. They become incorporated in home-based power packs, in grid-level storage, in electric boats, etc. Their lives are also much greater than most originally assumed; there are electric taxis which have done hundreds of thousands of miles. Don’t make any assumptions about battery life based on your electric toothbrush; it’s a very different world.

One concern about battery production at present should perhaps be that some of the metals — cobalt was mentioned above — are extracted in countries that have a dubious reputation. But that’s a temporary issue: there are many ways of making batteries, and this just happens to be the most efficient at present. We’ve already moved through several different technologies in last few decades and now, of course, there’s a huge incentive for anyone who comes up with new and better batteries. Many of the current prototypes do not depend on cobalt, for example.

Secondly, yes, of course you still need to generate the electricity and some of that process can be polluting. Even if the power is generated from fossil fuels, though, it’s nearly twice as efficient to do it in a power station than in a car. But the key thing is that by using electricity you then have the option to produce some of it using renewables; in the case of the UK, we produce rather a substantial proportion that way now. I buy all my electricity from a company that gets it purely from renewables, and mostly from hydroelectric power, so all my car driving for the last couple of years has been driven by Welsh rainwater. This appears to be plentiful!

So I’m an enthusiast, and I think it’s unlikely I will buy a car with a combustion engine again.

With my van, though, there is a thrill about filling up the tank and seeing a range of 650 miles (Not quite so much of a thrill about paying for the tankful afterwards!) And since my last long trip was to the Dordogne and back just before Christmas, I did have my trusty Webasto going almost all night every night, and I was wondering what I would do if the van were electric. In fact, of course, everywhere I stopped I had a hook-up, and I now have a little electric heater, so that wouldn’t be much of an issue unless I were staying a bit further off the grid.

Probably the perfect combination would be what I have in my car: a van that is mostly electric but with a few gallons of diesel for when you need them to extend the range or extend the heat.

And of course, if I were doing a long journey and did need to stop every few hours to charge, the van would be a great place to do it. You could make a coffee, have lunch, or even a short snooze while you topped up. It gives a whole new meaning to the phrase power-nap!

"As of 2017, hydropower accounts for around 1.8% of Britain’s total electricity supply" The switch.
Whilst there is some potential for additional supply it is obviously a laughably small source of power in the UK, all fine if you are happy to have your supply terminated when millions of like minded people also want to use guilt free electricity.

 

[Colin Rodens]

How would the night heater work.

 

[Elizabeth Silman]

Good evening,

I don't believe that full electric cars can replace vehicles with combustion engines soon - so I said it

Even if in the near future the battery development manages to produce batteries with high capacity, good for 500 - 600 km (realistically), from where is the electricity coming from (which first all countries in Europe must develop a framework for recharging)? I don't know how many vehicles we have in Ireland or in Europe, but if only 25% of those cars would be full electric that is a lot of electricity (on top of everything else) that need to be produced.

Germany made a clear commitment to close down all nuclear power stations in the future (can't remember in what year), other countries might (maybe even should) follow. Does that mean we have to produce all this electricity from renewable resources? I have a small shadow of a doubt.

In my workplace the number of electric cars are growing. Talking to the drivers I hear one thing only - it is cheap to run. How is this achieved? By using the options of free recharging either from the county council, shopping malls or in work. I believe the hunger for electric cars will get a dent as soon as all those drivers need to charger their car at home, paying for it. I know that we all have to pay a lot at the petrol station, but suddenly to get a high electricity bill...

Please, don't get me wrong. I am not against environment protection. But I try to be realistic and pragmatic.

In the last 70 years Europe created an environment that rely to commute. Work and shopping is in the inner cities. Living is in the country side, out of the cities (mainly because nobody can afford a house, apartment to buy or rent in the city). It is a gigantic effort to improve the public transport (bus and train) to improve the service outside the cities (which was neglected in all the years because everybody was driving).

What about all the tourist areas in Europe. Almost all of them rely on visitors using cars, buses, planes, ships, campers or motorbikes. I couldn't imagine how live would like for those people living and working in the tourist areas. Areas which have a natural beauty but without tourists bitterly poor.

We all got use to affordable flights. Hopping over to America - no problem, hopping over to Australia - no problem, hopping over to Frankfurt - no problem (well that is a problem for me, I start to dislike flying ). Losing this, does that mean we can't visit our relatives oversees anymore?

I believe we need more time, which we (humanity) might not have. Wouldn't it be more realistic if for instance we scale down of what we have, meaning continue to use combustion engines - but smaller ones. Is it necessary to have a 3l engine with 275 BHP? There are engines with 1L and 90 BHP using realistically less than 50% of petrol / diesel. There is a hype that only "sporty" and "powerful" cars can achieve what we need to achieve. And this is the point that I believe we need to change. I believe we can continue to live in the same way - but scaled down, which in turn takes pressure off the environment and buys us the time we need.

In my mind the near future would be in parallel to scale down the vehicles with combustion engine and at the same time try to find alternatives (public transport, make living in the cities affordable ((hence avoid or reduce traffic in the first place)) develop electric cars / vans / trucks, look for an alternative to combustion engine ((not electric)), tackle the other sources of environmental pollution).

Just may thoughts about this.

Regards,
Eberhard

Long post but I think you've spoken a lot of sense.

 

[Quentin SF]

"As of 2017, hydropower accounts for around 1.8% of Britain’s total electricity supply" The switch.
Whilst there is some potential for additional supply it is obviously a laughably small source of power in the UK, all fine if you are happy to have your supply terminated when millions of like minded people also want to use guilt free electricity.

Yes, hydro's a pretty small part of the generation at present. The UK gets a third of its energy from renewables at present - 33.1% in Q3 of 2018, to be precise - and the number's going up all the time, but hydro isn't a very significant part of that. It's quite useful as a way of storing excess and load-balancing the grid, though.

My comment about it being plentiful was a joke about Welsh weather, BTW

 

[soulstyledevon]

I think the home charging practicalities will be a real challenge. If charging points are allowed on public pavements outside your house (assuming no off road parking) ...
The cost of laying the cable and reinstating the pavement. I recall the mess the cable TV companies made when laying fibre in towns.
What’s to stop others parking and blocking access to charging point.

One of our work vans had the charging cable stolen last week. Whilst it was on charge. Not only did we have an un-useable van for a day with an engineer sitting idle. But we also had the replacement cost.
Replacement cost £650...!!!

 

[soulstyledevon]

Quentin SF.
What are the residual values on those BMWs...?
My neighbour has the i8.
The amount of money he has lost in the last few years. OMG. You could probably buy a small house up north somewhere.
Then there is the replacement battery cost. Apparently £30k ish...???

 

[jessecampervan]

There not banning diesels until 2040, a few years left yet to enjoy it.

With predictions for sea levels by 2050 I think we’ll be trading in the Cali for a floating version. Or we’ll have more serious issues to worry about

 

[Vantastic2]

So here I am looking on VW.com website for this Electric California,where is it?
I can see the I.D.Buzz !

 

[Quentin SF]

Quentin SF.
What are the residual values on those BMWs...?

Not good! The cost of being an early adopter. I bought mine as a one-year-old demo, but it's still depreciated a lot, as with most cars that have less than 100 miles range. On the other hand, I'll probably keep it for a long time and hopefully sell it when it becomes a classic

This year's cars (VW, Kia, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai etc) are a very different prospect. I would actually never have thought of buying a BMW -- too much of a boy-racer image -- but they were the only ones selling something with the range-extender model rather than a more traditional hybrid, and I do think it's the best option.

Then there is the replacement battery cost. Apparently £30k ish...???

The i8 is a very different beast and everything about it is silly money - the purchase, the servicing, the rental car you also need to hire if you want to carry anything more than a small briefcase in the back... So I can imagine that their batteries would be expensive - despite having significantly less battery range than mine, it's a car that costs over 100K and they price everything accordingly because people who buy them are clearly not too price-sensitive

For a while there was the option in the rest of Europe to replace the i3 battery that I've got with the next size up, and I believe the cost was about €7000. If you were just repairing a faulty cell on the original battery it would be less, though perhaps not much less, given the cost of BMW labour. The batteries have an eight-year warranty from new, BTW.

 

[soulstyledevon]

My sons Nursery runs 2 i3s and they rave about them. Funky cars, look a better alternative, to all out electric.

 

[burnercan]

How would the night heater work.

Good question. Maybe the designers figure that global warming will take care of that for us..?

 

[Louis II]

Just got back from Bath and having struggled to find a parking space the combination of this thread and the empty EV charging spaces in the car park got me thinking......
Could I hook my Cali up to one of those?................ Or at least get my cable out & pretend so as to take advantage of all those wasted parking spaces in multi-storey car parks?

 

[shudycamps]

So VW are releasing an all electric powered version of the T6.1 including a California version in Autumn 2019.

It states a range of upto 300 miles, but how do you all feel about a 300 mile range? Is that enough? Its the charging that worries me?
View attachment 41664

Quote from Top Gear
"Alongside a bunch of 2.0 TDI diesels (topping out at 196bhp) there’s now a fully electric version, developed with the help of tuning and motorsport specialists ABT and possessing 110bhp. With the option of a humongous 77.6kWh battery, it can travel almost 300 miles on a charge. Though we suspect that’ll fall depending on how you drive it and how heavily you load it"

I doubt most Cali owners would actually get 300 with fridge on, bikes loaded etc. How many charging points has anyone actually seen / taken notice of when travelling, aside from campsites? No doubt, in due course, campsites will have electric charging points for vehicles, but be prepared to pay. Isn't it marvelous how the diesel hating public seem to think that little faries sprinkle gold dust and poof! Electricity is magically there without any carbon trace whatsoever.

 

[MarkVw2017]

I doubt most Cali owners would actually get 300 with fridge on, bikes loaded etc. How many charging points has anyone actually seen / taken notice of when travelling, aside from campsites? No doubt, in due course, campsites will have electric charging points for vehicles, but be prepared to pay. Isn't it marvelous how the diesel hating public seem to think that little faries sprinkle gold dust and poof! Electricity is magically there without any carbon trace whatsoever.

A goid ooint, creating electric and cobalt batteries is defo not as green as people think. Ehat about an invention that makes solar panels so efficient, can run a car all day

 

[Quentin SF]

How many charging points has anyone actually seen / taken notice of when travelling, aside from campsites?

If you're interested, there are 20,000 public charging points in the UK, at 7000 locations. Not all of those are the high-power rapid chargers, of course; those number 4600, at 1400 locations. See zap-map.com for the details.

Of course, you can also charge at any 13A socket if you're staying somewhere overnight. I've often done that at hotels and B&Bs, and though I've always offered to pay them the £2 it costs them (if my car is completely empty when I arrive), so far nobody has taken me up on my offer!

A goid ooint, creating electric and cobalt batteries is defo not as green as people think.

No, but a lot greener than the diesel vans we all drive at the moment - see my post above Nobody's saying that it's perfect, but it's a huge step in the right direction.

 

[Fairline]

Hmm, perception and comment by non electric vehicle owning public is often far from reality. I've owned a Tesla model X P100D with Ludicrous mode for over 2 years. Firstly it has a claimed max 330 miles, but just like the consumption figures produced for ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicles, it's nigh on impossible to achieve.
However, the car is off the scale fast (0-60 in 2.9secs), comes with a full 8 year warranty with no requirement for servicing and provides a very smooth and silent drive. It has performed perfectly and has never been back to Tesla since I took delivery new.
The car is constantly connected to the internet and receives regular updates just like a iPhone, which means it actually improves the longer you own it.
Charging is perhaps the biggest area where perception is generally way out, certainly as far as Tesla are concerned. Having to take my wife's Range Rover to the petrol station and fork out the best part of £100 and the time it takes is a real drag compared to just slipping in the charging lead at home (cost around £6/full charge) a couple of times a week for the Tesla. My car came with free lifetime charging on the supercharger network, no road tax or congestion charge. Twenty minutes on a motorway supercharger (time for a coffee and comfort break) will put around 180 miles of charge into the battery. Tesla's supercharger network is extensive throughout the main motorways and autoroutes of Europe and in this regard Tesla has a huge first starter advantage over the laggard big manufacturers whose self-serving interests have held back the advance of electric cars. Interestingly Tesla's market cap is now greater than Ford.
Battery technology is rapidly improving as are the performance of the superchargers, so its crystal clear to me that within a few short years everyone will be clambering into electric cars.
The big challenge for the other manufacturers will be in providing a substantial charging network to satisfy demand.

 

[2into1]

I know it’s no longer just about CO2, but .....UK carbon emissions are at that lowest since 1888 (yes, 1888).
https://order-order.com/2019/03/04/uk-carbon-emissions-lowest-since-1888/

 

[soulstyledevon]

Hold on a minute.
Your comparing the cost of fill-ups on a Range Rover to that of a Tesla...?

Let’s compare like for like.
M3 vs Tesla.
Initial cost of both
M3 £55k Tesla £75k for the basic car.

That’s a lot of fill-ups at £100 against £6
Plus a lot more fun in an M3 and convenience.