The demise of diesel!

[pjm-84]

what range do you get solely from PV ?

Well since my car was an hybrid about 26miles on the usable part of the battery.Plug the car up to the grid, PVs producing 3.5kwh, car is taking 3 ish.

Anyway, stop. Time out.

A vehicle suits a need. My need is for dogs, muddy dogs, muddy parking areas, parking in fields and ditches at MTB events, throwing muddy bikes in the back and wet kit, and saving the Cali from that abuse, particularly the muddy bit. So I've ordered a petrol Defender.

 

[Perfectos]

Did, watched it last night so fresh in mind, although it did drag it out a bit so stopped after he beat the Mclaren. It wasnt promoting EVs. Its was to do with producing a fast EV to take the record. Guy is a petrol head through and through.

Driving to John O Groats in a EV is not a promotion. However its not a journey that I've ever felt the urge to make.

Petrol head and journey is an oxymoron

 

[Bellcrew]

Petrol head and journey is an oxymoron

John O Groats to Lands End is a fairly common stroll for charity, Botham became a Lord for his endeavours on the route. If a beefy chap can do it on multiple occasions it should be a doddle for a battery car.

 

[Wildcamper]

Yes buy the Cali and enjoy life. Will diesel vehicles really be banned in 2030, maybe but almost anything could happen. While EVs are great to drive I can't see them being the answer to save the planet but they will improve inner city air quality. Longer term I see them being just as damaging to the environment than ICE but in a different way. Already mentioned on here is the "out of sight out of mind" element. Most people have no idea of the damage caused in mining the specialist materials required for efficient EVs. Then where is the electricity going to come from? Still no good answers to that one. In my opinion it still comes down to over population driving consumption and demand. Reduce the population, hence reduce demand and reduce all pollution. However, no government has the guts to even talk about this. In the absence of international coordinated population reduction (it will never happen) there will be a major incident that does reduce population, war, famine, a virus or the like. Enjoy the California!

 

[two-saabs]

until we get our numbers right, we can‘t correctly and effectively address the problem. Global car traffic accounts for 12% of global CO2 emissions.
There are a lot of countries, very highly populated ones, where car ownership is increasing fast but they are nowhere close to be able to use electric vehicles. The UK , and even more so Germany, are not going to save the planet because even as of tomorrow we just have electric vehicles, it would be a tiny % of the global CO2 that is not injected in the atmosphere. Especially in Germany where the energy mix is dependent on coal, so Co2 is produced to produce electricity, what have we solved?
Just ruined our car industry , cause additional financial expenditures for individual transportation and achieved almost nothing in reduction of co2.
what is the uk going to achieve banning electric cars unless europe does the same. How are we going to travel by car to other countries if they don‘t have an adequate network of charging points and Megawatts of electricity available? well we‘ll probably fly then, that will save a lot of Co2!

I

China built more than three times as much new coal power capacity as all the other countries in the world combined last year.

That’s according to a new survey by the San Francisco-based think tank Global Energy Monitor (GEM) and the independent organisation Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air (CREA), which suggests China commissioned 38.4GW of new coal plants last year.

That translates to more than one large coal plant every week.

The research, which surveyed global coal-fired units through to 31st December, also shows 73GW of new coal power projects started in China, which is five times as much as in all other countries.

The report demonstrates Chinaʼs coal fleet grew by 29.8GW in 2020, while in the rest of the world’s net capacity decreased by 17.2GW.

We are just p......g in the wind, futile gestures, virtue signalling and wishful thinking, sad really.

Agree generally that we are small part of this. Some thoughts come to mind, bit of a mixture:

- the US would be biased when reporting on China so whatever the facts, there is for sure an angle

- I believe the US have additional areas to move forward, including the V8 petrol-head culture, the love of the automobile, the crappy public transport infrastructure, the snobbery towards us Europeans and "our funny little cars" where they generally consider the car to be a reflection of success.

- China aren't just expanding for themselves; it's us buying all that stuff.

It's a global problem with a global solution that needs joined up thinking between industries. Which means very interesting, but takes a long time to implement

 

[two-saabs]

Yes buy the Cali and enjoy life. Will diesel vehicles really be banned in 2030, maybe but almost anything could happen. While EVs are great to drive I can't see them being the answer to save the planet but they will improve inner city air quality. Longer term I see them being just as damaging to the environment than ICE but in a different way. Already mentioned on here is the "out of sight out of mind" element. Most people have no idea of the damage caused in mining the specialist materials required for efficient EVs. Then where is the electricity going to come from? Still no good answers to that one. In my opinion it still comes down to over population driving consumption and demand. Reduce the population, hence reduce demand and reduce all pollution. However, no government has the guts to even talk about this. In the absence of international coordinated population reduction (it will never happen) there will be a major incident that does reduce population, war, famine, a virus or the like. Enjoy the California!

Well this argument can get very controversial very quick, and to avoid this we need to stick to the facts.

Often any mention of over-population really means "it's all those poor people over there who are the problem", and I'm not sure what's being suggested. Make sure there's famine and war to keep numbers down?

I'm not saying you are saying this, but many do, which starts on slippery slope.

Now away from the controversial part, the numbers are non-linear and you might not like to hear it.

I'd expect a single person buying any new car (electric, Cali, whatever) and then running it, will use a massive amount of energy compared to many others, including:

- Someone who has no car (walks or uses a bike) in a developed country
- Someone who uses public transport
- Someone who bought an old car years ago and keeps it on the road

Of course then it goes on and on and I don't expect everyone to live in a hand built house on a hill living off the land.

I'd estimate a new car buyer probably uses 1000 times more energy than a poor person in a less developed country.

If anyone has any research done on this I'd be happy to hear it / be corrected.

 

[Wildcamper]

Well this argument can get very controversial very quick, and to avoid this we need to stick to the facts.

Often any mention of over-population really means "it's all those poor people over there who are the problem", and I'm not sure what's being suggested. Make sure there's famine and war to keep numbers down?

I'm not saying you are saying this, but many do, which starts on slippery slope.

Now away from the controversial part, the numbers are non-linear and you might not like to hear it.

I'd expect a single person buying any new car (electric, Cali, whatever) and then running it, will use a massive amount of energy compared to many others, including:

- Someone who has no car (walks or uses a bike) in a developed country
- Someone who uses public transport
- Someone who bought an old car years ago and keeps it on the road

Of course then it goes on and on and I don't expect everyone to live in a hand built house on a hill living off the land.

I'd estimate a new car buyer probably uses 1000 times more energy than a poor person in a less developed country.

If anyone has any research done on this I'd be happy to hear it / be corrected.

You are right, population reduction is very controversial. I am not aiming my comment at the poor or poor countries. We are all in this together. For the UK my suggestion, for what it's worth, would be a population reduction of 15 million.

 

[two-saabs]

You are right, population reduction is very controversial. I am not aiming my comment at the poor or poor countries. We are all in this together. For the UK my suggestion, for what it's worth, would be a population reduction of 15 million.

Absolutely, global problem needing a global solution, here's some good info:

Fossil fuel consumption per capita

Fossil fuel consumption per capita is measured as the average consumption of energy from coal, oil and gas, in kilowatt-hours per person.

ourworldindata.org

 

[pjm-84]

John O Groats to Lands End is a fairly common stroll for charity, Botham became a Lord for his endeavours on the route. If a beefy chap can do it on multiple occasions it should be a doddle for a battery car.

If I was doing that in an electric car then I would be looking a Tesla long range and Tesla charging stations ( which are pretty reliable) Lands End to Birmingham, Birmingham to Edinburgh, Edinburgh to Inverness (splash and dash) then John Groat. 26p a Kw and all fast chargers.

 

[two-saabs]

You are right, population reduction is very controversial. I am not aiming my comment at the poor or poor countries. We are all in this together. For the UK my suggestion, for what it's worth, would be a population reduction of 15 million.

Still interested to hear on how to do this, encourage the young to have less children? Don't fix the old?

You are right, population reduction is very controversial. I am not aiming my comment at the poor or poor countries. We are all in this together. For the UK my suggestion, for what it's worth, would be a population reduction of 15 million.

Still interested to hear how to do this, encourage the young to have less children?

We should probably get back to the main topic about fuel and energy alternatives, bit too much for a Sunday morning!

 

[Ozzy Pete]

Done for affect and suits a narrative. Yes the range drops in the winter but it works its out and tells you in advance.

13500miles in eight months in our ID3 work car and I would hazzard a guess, less than £300 in electricity. Range is 270miles and it has done 240miles quite happily. However its the way it drives. I would have one in a moment but alas I need a vehicle that can take two dogs but sometimes four.

But I assume you charge your car from home? If that’s correct and you are on a low night rate then yes it is cheap to run.( For now). But plug into a fast charger away from home and the cost shoots up massively. We have been on a low electricity tariff at home for quite a while until recently renewing on the cheapest new tariff, This has gone up by over a third and this is just the start. When everyone has an electric car the power companies will be able to do what they want the same way as the petrol and diesel suppliers. The days of free or cheap electricity in supermarkets or Tesla are numbered. If you only drive short distances and always charge from home for now yes it’s fairly cheap. But if you drive long distances and rely on charging points then that’s a different story. And that’s exactly what Guy Martin was saying.

 

[Hedley Wright]

If anyone saw Guy Martin the other night will now see that we are being sold a lie. To start with there are at the present time anywhere near enough charging stations. 70p per kh to plug into a supercharger. The cost to recharge a run of the mill electric car on a 150 kw charger is twice the cost per mile of diesel. 150 miles in a car that supposedly should do 300+ miles. The latest VW electric van does something like 80 miles on a full charge and 55 mph. I think we have a hell of a long way to go now before I would consider buying an electric vehicle. Which before I watched that programme I truly was considering.

You would do well to base your decision on your own research rather than relying on journalism. The programme based the cost of charging the battery on the assumption that all the charge was at IONITY’s admittedly exhorbitant 69p/kWh. The rest of the rapid network charges 30-40p/kWh. In addition to this you would set out from home with a full battery which would cost you between 5p/kWh and 20p/kWh depending on whether or not you have a cheap rate variable tariff.

The Ioniq 5 will indeed to 300 miles as advertised, at least in the summer at average speeds. Does your ICE car do the official government figure when hammering along the motorway? I guess not. On long trips, however, you are looking at about 70% of battery capacity between charges as it’s best not to risk arriving below 5-10% and once you reach 80% charge the car will slow the charge rate fro a rapid charger significantly to protect the battery. My holiday trip from Newmarket to Perthshire, Tarbert in Argyll and back to Newmarket required three stops on the way up (Elkersley Instavolt 40p/kWh, Alnwick IONITY 28p/kWh 9th my Polestar Plugsurfing card 28p/kWh and Perth IONITY (could have done it in two but wanted to try out a new charger in Perth) and two on the way home (Gretna Green IONITY 28p/kWh with my Polestar Plugsurfing card and Markham Moor Instavolt 40p/kWh ). I paid the owners of the two holiday cottages a total of £45mfor charging by 3-pin at a generous rate of 25p/kWh. I calculate the average cost of electricity over the holiday to be about 27p/kWh. My Polestar 2 - not a particularly efficient EV - averaged about 3.5 miles per kWh, so 7.7 pence/mile. I only have to use rapids when doing more than 180/220 miles in a day (winter/summer), for 48 weeks of the year I charge exclusively at home at an off-peak cost of 5.5p/kWh so less than 2 pence/mile. Why would you only buy an EV if, as Guy put it, you only drive a maximum of 50 miles a day? IMHO he lost himself a lot of credibility with that statement.

The current VW van is targeting the city delivery market where range and speed are not an issue but tailpipe emissions are hugely important for our health. There are other vans from Vauxhall, Renault etc with a real world range of 150-180 miles. The Vauxhall Vivaro-e has a top speed limited to 81mph.

For me, an EV campervan with a good range can’t come soon enough. Current offerings of a California size fall short on range for me by around 30%, a shortfall that will probably be met inside five years with improving battery density and lower lost. In the meantime I patiently await my California Ocean. I hate the prospect of going back to diesel but that’s how It is. Having owned two BEVs I would never go back to an ICE car.

 

[Rebus]

If it does happen in 2030, I personally think that the value on the secondhand market for diesel and petrol engines will increase as some people will still be reluctant to go over to electric

 

[Ozzy Pete]

You would do well to base your decision on your own research rather than relying on journalism. The programme based the cost of charging the battery on the assumption that all the charge was at IONITY’s admittedly exhorbitant 69p/kWh. The rest of the rapid network charges 30-40p/kWh. In addition to this you would set out from home with a full battery which would cost you between 5p/kWh and 20p/kWh depending on whether or not you have a cheap rate variable tariff.

The Ioniq 5 will indeed to 300 miles as advertised, at least in the summer at average speeds. Does your ICE car do the official government figure when hammering along the motorway? I guess not. On long trips, however, you are looking at about 70% of battery capacity between charges as it’s best not to risk arriving below 5-10% and once you reach 80% charge the car will slow the charge rate fro a rapid charger significantly to protect the battery. My holiday trip from Newmarket to Perthshire, Tarbert in Argyll and back to Newmarket required three stops on the way up (Elkersley Instavolt 40p/kWh, Alnwick IONITY 28p/kWh 9th my Polestar Plugsurfing card 28p/kWh and Perth IONITY (could have done it in two but wanted to try out a new charger in Perth) and two on the way home (Gretna Green IONITY 28p/kWh with my Polestar Plugsurfing card and Markham Moor Instavolt 40p/kWh ). I paid the owners of the two holiday cottages a total of £45mfor charging by 3-pin at a generous rate of 25p/kWh. I calculate the average cost of electricity over the holiday to be about 27p/kWh. My Polestar 2 - not a particularly efficient EV - averaged about 3.5 miles per kWh, so 7.7 pence/mile. I only have to use rapids when doing more than 180/220 miles in a day (winter/summer), for 48 weeks of the year I charge exclusively at home at an off-peak cost of 5.5p/kWh so less than 2 pence/mile. Why would you only buy an EV if, as Guy put it, you only drive a maximum of 50 miles a day? IMHO he lost himself a lot of credibility with that statement.

The current VW van is targeting the city delivery market where range and speed are not an issue but tailpipe emissions are hugely important for our health. There are other vans from Vauxhall, Renault etc with a real world range of 150-180 miles. The Vauxhall Vivaro-e has a top speed limited to 81mph.

For me, an EV campervan with a good range can’t come soon enough. Current offerings of a California size fall short on range for me by around 30%, a shortfall that will probably be met inside five years with improving battery density and lower lost. In the meantime I patiently await my California Ocean. I hate the prospect of going back to diesel but that’s how It is. Having owned two BEVs I would never go back to an ICE car.

How else can most of us base anything to do with an EV if we don’t own one? You have to rely on a third party. Like I did say if you charge from home then yes the electricity is cheaper(for now). Our own electricity has gone up from 12.8 pence per kwh to almost 21pence per kWh. In one go. How long do you think electricity will be cheap at night? When everyone owns an EV there will be no such thing as cheap electricity. All we are doing is putting all our eggs again in one basket. There are other forms of powering vehicles but it seems the battery option because it’s cheaper is the one the manufacturers and government have gone for. At the moment I drive a Petrol hybrid, next car will be a plug-in hybrid. Then I may think about an EV.

 

[Rebus]

If anyone saw Guy Martin the other night will now see that we are being sold a lie. To start with there are at the present time anywhere near enough charging stations. 70p per kh to plug into a supercharger. The cost to recharge a run of the mill electric car on a 150 kw charger is twice the cost per mile of diesel. 150 miles in a car that supposedly should do 300+ miles. The latest VW electric van does something like 80 miles on a full charge and 55 mph. I think we have a hell of a long way to go now before I would consider buying an electric vehicle. Which before I watched that programme I truly was considering.

There is some truth in what he said. There’s a guy on YouTube RSymons he does in-depth reports on electric vehicles. He did a 400 mile round trip and it cost him £22. He also did Edinburgh to Chichester and it took (I think) one charge on the way down. I think the electric VW Transporter needs to be built from the ground up with the chassis completely designed for batteries

 

[Hedley Wright]

How else can most of us base anything to do with an EV if we don’t own one? You have to rely on a third party.

Make that third party people who own EVs, not journalists.

 

[pjm-84]

No, there are incentives for EVs. So parking is 90% reduced and you can charge for free at 22kwh. As my office is 2km from where I live. I walk to and from work. The car is a company pool car.

Drive around town is a hoot as acceleration is instance and go kartish

But I assume you charge your car from home? If that’s correct and you are on a low night rate then yes it is cheap to run.( For now)

 

[Eber123]

I also believe that the price for electricity (at least the electricity which is used to charge the cars) will increase. If more and more petrol and diesel cars disappear from our roads replaced by electric cars all the governments will lose a lot of money from diesel and petrol tax. Because of this either the cost of electricity must be increased or other taxes need to increase or needs to be invented.

In the western world I assume roughly three reasons while people moving 1.) work, 2) transport and 3.) leisure (yes there is a lot of grey levels in here, but for arguments sake let's pretend there are only three).

Beside working from home (in my eyes depetable) traveling for work will be accepted because it can't be avoided. Here we can use electric cars or public transport.

Moving to transport something will also be accepted because this also can't be avoided. Here is a lot of change possible (the source of our products, more local?), more trains, and electric vans, small trucks in greater city areas.

I am a wee bit afraid that traveling for leisure / pleasure might not be accepted with the wider public in the future, because this can be avoided. This has the potential to change our culture. It also will have an impact on the tourism industry. Hotels, B&Bs etc are normally in places which are away from metropoles and traffic hotspots. This industry just got a taste of potential issues because of the pandemie. In the future will we travel by train or ship (of course ships with better technology) or by bus? Young people maybe, but I can't see a family with 2x children getting a train from London to a holiday resort in Portugal (to use the plane is a no go in the future).

There is so much I don't understand. In Ireland there is a housing shortage. This creates pressure to build more houses. OK. But why are new build houses won't have an electric charging point (or two) as standard? If the government makes all these statements, why are they not starting there? The only answer is to increase tax.

I am glad that I don't have to sort out this mess.

Happy Grand California,
Eberhard

 

[pjm-84]

But if you drive long distances and rely on charging points then that’s a different story. And that’s exactly what Guy Martin was saying.

You buy a Tesla long range. You just have to look at the mileage some of the Teslas have done. What you dont do is buy a car with a shorter range, and a poorer charging infrastructure. Or you dont buy an EV.

Interesting figures for mileage and car makes. Us California drivers are pretty low.

https://www.racfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/New_car_miles_by_make_model_and_fuel_type_April_2020.pdf

 

[ArunAlec]

Absolutely, global problem needing a global solution, here's some good info:

Fossil fuel consumption per capita

Fossil fuel consumption per capita is measured as the average consumption of energy from coal, oil and gas, in kilowatt-hours per person.

ourworldindata.org

The chart gets even more interesting when you select countries to add that are not on the original…. UAE, Kuwait, Saudi and Canada.

Anyone hazard a guess as to why the figure for Europe is less than Germany?

 

[Bellcrew]

The chart gets even more interesting when you select countries to add that are not on the original…. UAE, Kuwait, Saudi and Canada.

Anyone hazard a guess as to why the figure for Europe is less than Germany?

Lignite, a sort of cross between peat and coal is used in a number of new power stations, got to keep those East Volk in work.

 

[westfalia]

Great to see Paris leading by example, they have 1000 electric buses
whizzing around.

Within an hour you will see all of these too, if
your looking.

 

[Wildcamper]

Great to see Paris leading by example, they have 1000 electric buses
whizzing around.
View attachment 83164
Within an hour you will see all of these too, if
your looking.

View attachment 83165View attachment 83166View attachment 83167View attachment 83168View attachment 83169
View attachment 83170

And these all serve to reduce inner city pollution, which is great. Save the planet they will not

 

[Pollewop]

Great to see Paris leading by example, they have 1000 electric buses
whizzing around.
View attachment 83164
Within an hour you will see all of these too, if
your looking.

View attachment 83165View attachment 83166View attachment 83167View attachment 83168View attachment 83169
View attachment 83170

Mmmm, that's all very nice, but will you be able to move a campervan to the Croatia with these? ;-)

 

[pjm-84]

Oddly when I visit this thread I keep thinking of my Aprilia Dorsoduro. 80 miles range and about 18 on reserve. No fuel gauge.

1100miles in 24hrs on that would have been impossible. Would have required 15+ petrol stops, assuming the garages in the remote parts of the Highlands are 24hrs. Refuelling every 90min.