Increased Oil Consumption Problem (2010 T5 Cali 180 bhp)

[AlanC]

As I understand the EGR issue, the non suffix EGRs were fitted to 2010-late 2011 180 engines. The A suffix came in after that, to be superseded by a C and then D suffix in July 2016. Not sure if there was a B suffix at all. I am sure someone will know the exact dates of these changes.

I believe the alloy used in the casting of the cooler vanes, that the exhaust passes over, was changed and is now also coated, so in theory the corrosion that previously occurred, causing the bore wear is now inhibited.

None of the above has come direct from VW UK, or Germany for that matter, but has been pieced together from the knowledge of VW techs and the experience of owners. However, to my mine it all makes perfect sense.

There are some folk who have younger vans such as 2012/13 MY that are now having cause for concern since they have analysed their oil. Lots of ally contaminates in the oils apparently.

These from the VW T5.1 / T6 excessive oil use for CFCA 2.0 180hp engines Facebook page, posted 2 hours ago:-

"My oil analysis has come back. I think its safe to say I might have to spend some money..."
[on a 2012 van, Iron 65ppm, Aluminium 127ppm]

And another posted

"My oil test came back and its not good. 2013 [van] 25k [mls], oil age 8.8k [mls], aluminium 156ppm, iron 115ppm. This is considered to be critical, you get a warning for 20ppm and above on aluminium."

So I don't think any 180bhp T5 owner can be complacent.

Alan

 

[AlanC]

There is one other thing I would add. To my mind long 20Kmls service periods are not sustainable and have contributed to this problem.

I now intend to change the oil on our new engine every 10Kmls without fail.

Alan

 

[2into1]

No, Open rather than Closed mind

@WelshGas . You are quoting me and disagreeing with a reply I made to @deccauk (not you).

It was addressed to @deccauk who was dismissing official VW TPI's (which explain the problem) as 'internet chatter' yet putting forward his own wild speculation that VW can't produce circular cylinder bores.

They reveal absolutely nothing.

I couldn't disagree more.

I just cannot believe that oil contaminated with a tiny amount of aluminium (200 ppm or thereabouts in the worst cases) can cause that much damage to cast iron cylinder bores, particularly if the oil is changed at least annually.

Checking for contamination in the oil is just a way of seeing if the egr cooler is falling to bits without dismantling the engine. It's the build-up of AL(OH)3 stuck to the piston rings that wears the bores. Once that has occurred, even if the egr is changed, changing the oil every week won't budge that build up nor rescue the engine.

I've never said that any of this is scientifically proven or complete, but a huge amount more is known now than when @BerndRos first reported the problem to the forum 2 years ago. Much of that disclosure is from VW themselves and it all points to the egr cooler.

 

[WelshGas]

@WelshGas . You are quoting me and disagreeing with a reply I made to @deccauk (not you).

 

[deccauk]

@WelshGas . You are quoting me and disagreeing with a reply I made to @deccauk (not you).

It was addressed to @deccauk who was dismissing official VW TPI's (which explain the problem) as 'internet chatter' yet putting forward his own wild speculation that VW can't produce circular cylinder bores.

I couldn't disagree more.

Checking for contamination in the oil is just a way of seeing if the egr cooler is falling to bits without dismantling the engine. It's the build-up of AL(OH)3 stuck to the piston rings that wears the bores. Once that has occurred, even if the egr is changed, changing the oil every week won't budge that build up nor rescue the engine.

I've never said that any of this is scientifically proven or complete, but a huge amount more is known now than when @BerndRos first reported the problem to the forum 2 years ago. Much of that disclosure is from VW themselves and it all points to the egr cooler.

Disagree all you like, we are all entitled to our own opinions. Most of this entire discussion revolves around people's opinions, yours included. I refer to your earlier statement where you described the cause (rather than the POSSIBLE cause) as the cylinder bores becoming oval. Do you have any evidence of this? My comment that the cylinder bores might be manufactured slightly oval was obviously speculative, and not a statement of fact! I thought that was clear. There are obviously manufacturing tolerances involved that may not be adhered to.

I never at any point said the VW TPIs were the "internet chatter" - you are being manipulative to reinforce your own personal opinion. Is it not obvious what internet chatter is? We are creating it ourselves.

Tell me which TPIs explain the CAUSE of the problem, rather than just the effect.

Where is it stated that aluminium oxide can bind to the piston rings?

Where and when have VW ever disclosed that the source of the high oil consumption problem is the EGR cooler?

 

[BerndRos]

For those of you making light of this, if your van gets afflicted, it will make your additional roof issues, seem like a walk in the park.

Looking at what's contained here, the VW TPI, the 'Norway Info' & the FB group info, it's obviously the EGR that's the cause.

 

[WelshGas]

For those of you making light of this, if your van gets afflicted, it will make your additional roof issues, seem like a walk in the park.

Looking at what's contained here, the VW TPI, the 'Norway Info' & the FB group info, it's obviously the EGR that's the cause.

No one is making light of this problem. No one is denying it exists. However I spent my whole working life dealing with EVIDENCE and I see no Class 1 evidence that the EGR valve is TOTALLY responsible.
The EGR cooling fins are supposed to corrode in the hot exhaust gas, mix with air from the air inlet and pass through the turbo , intercooler matrix and through the inlet manifold and inlet valves and get deposited in the cylinders causing damage. Some of the particles of Aluminium get into the engine oil where they are detected in the oil.
That is a very tortuous route to follow. Also the EGR technology is used in many vehicles and engines many of which will use units probably made by the same company that supplies VW and using the same materials.
In fact the one and only item not shared by multiple manufacturers is the CFCA engine block. EGR, Turbo and Intercoolers, valves, pistons and ducting all use the same technology and materials and probably come from a small pool of suppliers to the car/engine manufacturers worldwide.

The problem exists - Confirmed.

The cause - No Confirmation only theories and Internet chatter.

 

[deccauk]

No one is making light of this problem. No one is denying it exists. However I spent my whole working life dealing with EVIDENCE and I see no Class 1 evidence that the EGR valve is TOTALLY responsible.
The EGR cooling fins are supposed to corrode in the hot exhaust gas, mix with air from the air inlet and pass through the turbo , intercooler matrix and through the inlet manifold and inlet valves and get deposited in the cylinders causing damage. Some of the particles of Aluminium get into the engine oil where they are detected in the oil.
That is a very tortuous route to follow. Also the EGR technology is used in many vehicles and engines many of which will use units probably made by the same company that supplies VW and using the same materials.
In fact the one and only item not shared by multiple manufacturers is the CFCA engine block. EGR, Turbo and Intercoolers, valves, pistons and ducting all use the same technology and materials and probably come from a small pool of suppliers to the car/engine manufacturers worldwide.

The problem exists - Confirmed.

The cause - No Confirmation only theories and Internet chatter.

The voice of reason.

I too have spent my entire working life dealing with facts. I have a scientific and engineering background. I spent a large portion of my life as a software developer in the process control industry. There was never any doubt if the software being developed worked properly or not. It did what it was supposed to do or it did not. Black and white. No grey. If there was a fault it could be found and it could be fixed. Cause and effect ruled the day. No debate was required.

If only that were the case here. If it was proven that it was the EGR at fault, I would be a very very happy bunny indeed. The cause would be found. The solution would be clear. Case closed.

I wish...

 

[BerndRos]

But, the fact is the 180 biturbo is the engine subject to a problem that requires a very very expensive...cure, a new engine if yours gets afflicted.

Simple as that.

Putting aside pedantics as to the precise cause of the problem, only a betting person or a fool would buy a used van with this engine.

Sorry, but as someone who went through the process of a new engine being fitted, that's my view.

As I said, I now view my roof issues as very minor compared to the engine issue.

 

[deccauk]

But, the fact is the 180 biturbo is the engine subject to a problem that requires a very very expensive...cure, a new engine if yours gets afflicted.

Simple as that.

Putting aside pedantics as to the precise cause of the problem, only a betting person or a fool would buy a used van with this engine.

Sorry, but as someone who went through the process of a new engine being fitted, that's my view.

As I said, I now view my roof issues as very minor compared to the engine issue.

Indeed...

Latest quote on the Facebook forum from a VW dealer is £8,832.19

That would buy a lot of top-up oil...

 

[2into1]

refer to your earlier statement where you described the cause (rather than the POSSIBLE cause) as the cylinder bores becoming oval.

If you'd like to show me in which of my 1347 previous posts I said that I'll respond with the context. I don't plan on searching them all only for you to try and twist my words out of context.

My only involvement here is to bring notice to the forum developments on this issue that are taking place elsewhere. Yours seems to be to shout me down for doing so.

I pulled a deposit on a 180hp 2012 Berghaus, I'm again considering a T5 Cali SE. I hold a degree in Mechanical Engineering. I personally won't be touching a 180 until this issue is understood.

I repeat again, for the avoidance of any doubt. My posts on this issue have been to share developments in this story that were going unseen by much of this community.

If forum members are following the 2 threads here, are aware of the TPIs, aware that in other European markets vw are making heavy contributions to replacing engines, are familiar with the photos of scored bores and bound rings, the 'Norway info' ...... and go on to make their own different decision, I'll be delighted.

 

[deccauk]

If you'd like to show me in which of my 1347 previous posts I said that I'll respond with the context. I don't plan on searching them all only for you to try and twist my words out of context.
.

Post 24 in this thread...oval cylinder bores - not too hard to find.

Some evidence would be good...

 

[deccauk]

If forum members are following the 2 threads here, are aware of the TPIs, aware that in other European markets vw are making heavy contributions to replacing engines, are familiar with the photos of scored bores and bound rings, the 'Norway info' ...... and go on to make their own different decision, I'll be delighted.

I've made a different decision.

You don't seem very happy about it...

 

[BerndRos]

Indeed...

Latest quote on the Facebook forum from a VW dealer is £8,832.19

That would buy a lot of top-up oil...

It would, and if that were the only fall out, then I guess we would all live with the problem. But frequent limp mode kicking in, breakdowns, lights flashing on the dash.....not then driving in Europe in the dark, in case you run into trouble in a country your not familiar with.....

 

[larrylamb]

If you'd like to show me in which of my 1347 previous posts I said that I'll respond with the context. I don't plan on searching them all only for you to try and twist my words out of context.

My only involvement here is to bring notice to the forum developments on this issue that are taking place elsewhere. Yours seems to be to shout me down for doing so.

I pulled a deposit on a 180hp 2012 Berghaus, I'm again considering a T5 Cali SE. I hold a degree in Mechanical Engineering. I personally won't be touching a 180 until this issue is understood.

I repeat again, for the avoidance of any doubt. My posts on this issue have been to share developments in this story that were going unseen by much of this community.

If forum members are following the 2 threads here, are aware of the TPIs, aware that in other European markets vw are making heavy contributions to replacing engines, are familiar with the photos of scored bores and bound rings, the 'Norway info' ...... and go on to make their own different decision, I'll be delighted.

to quote Stan Laurel "You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead"

 

[2into1]

I've made a different decision.

You don't seem very happy about it...

I couldn't literally care less. What I do care about is you trying to shut me up when my involvement here (in sharing the TPIs etc) has generally thought to have been helpful.

 

[larrylamb]

This video, whilst advertising products at the end, explains terminology such as EGR, DPF, DEF, SCR Adblue etc and how contaminants can enter the combustion chamber causing wear to the engine.

 

[deccauk]

I couldn't literally care less. What I do care about is you trying to shut me up when my involvement here (in sharing the TPIs etc) has generally thought to have been helpful.

That's nice...

Far from trying to shut you up (your words, not mine) I would actually like you to tell us more.

You haven't answered any of my questions yet...

 

[deccauk]

This video, whilst advertising products at the end, explains terminology such as EGR, DPF, DEF, SCR Adblue etc and how contaminants can enter the combustion chamber causing wear to the engine.

That's an excellent video.

Three things spring to mind:

1. If soot in the oil causes high wear, regular oil changes are essential for minimising wear.

2. If soot is causing the wear (due to long life servicing), how much additional wear is caused by aluminium pollution in the oil?

3. If the DPF is in series with the exhaust, how are people getting away with removing it (and blanking the EGR) and still passing the MOT?

Interesting stuff...

 

[deccauk]

But, the fact is the 180 biturbo is the engine subject to a problem that requires a very very expensive...cure, a new engine if yours gets afflicted.

Simple as that.

Putting aside pedantics as to the precise cause of the problem, only a betting person or a fool would buy a used van with this engine.

Sorry, but as someone who went through the process of a new engine being fitted, that's my view.

As I said, I now view my roof issues as very minor compared to the engine issue.

Was your vehicle on long life servicing? When was the first oil change?

 

[BerndRos]

Was your vehicle on long life servicing? When was the first oil change?

Yes it was on long life service, had the first oil change carried out at my request after about 10000 miles at Faro, Portugal. But by the time I had driven up through Europe and into the Czech Republic (about 4000 miles covered) it went into limp mode and VW there fitted a new EGR under warranty. No idea of the version.

Then the Oil thirst issues kicked in during 2015 while I was in Germany. Van had 40K something on the clock. That garage at Trier had themselves fitted a fair few new engines and were well aware of the problem.

 

[2into1]

Far from trying to shut you up

That is exactly what you are trying to do because I'm sharing information that doesn't conform with your hope that regular oil changes will keep your engine safe.

If I were you I'd reflect on the benefit you got from a very similar set of threads on the roof rot. If you'd been there at the start of that, I suspect you'd have been trying to shut down those posting pics of their roof corrosion and telling them just to wash their van more regularly. By sharing info and theories here, many have benefited from a VW funded repair (of sorts).

You haven't answered any of my questions yet...

Your 'don't say anything you can't scientifically prove' attitude (which you clearly don't apply to yourself) is laughable, as the roof issue still isn't understood, yet the actions of folks here have forced VW to respond. The hope is the BiTurbo issue will follow the same route.

I'm bored now. I can only imagine how others feel about our exchange. I'll read your response which will no doubt come, but won't be responding to you again.

 

[2into1]

This video, whilst advertising products at the end, explains terminology such as EGR, DPF, DEF, SCR Adblue etc and how contaminants can enter the combustion chamber causing wear to the engine.

That's a nice video. What I didn't quite get is why the combustion temperatures are reduced by introducing the egr technology?
I know the recirculated air is cooled (sometimes collecting bits of the cooler with it...) but surely that cooled recirculated air is still much hotter than the fresh air it's replaced. As his whole thesis seems built on the problems caused by lowered combustion temperatures leading to more soot, it seems worth trying to clarify.

 

[deccauk]

That is exactly what you are trying to do because I'm sharing information that doesn't conform with your hope that regular oil changes will keep your engine safe.

If I were you I'd reflect on the benefit you got from a very similar set of threads on the roof rot. If you'd been there at the start of that, I suspect you'd have been trying to shut down those posting pics of their roof corrosion and telling them just to wash their van more regularly. By sharing info and theories here, many have benefited from a VW funded repair (of sorts).



Your 'don't say anything you can't scientifically prove' attitude (which you clearly don't apply to yourself) is laughable, as the roof issue still isn't understood, yet the actions of folks here have forced VW to respond. The hope is the BiTurbo issue will follow the same route.

I'm bored now. I can only imagine how others feel about our exchange. I'll read your response which will no doubt come, but won't be responding to you again.

You are correct, I am responding. I find your antagonistic attitude and personal attacks towards me extremely unhelpful, as well as your inability to back up YOUR OWN personal theories and statements.

I am as keen as anyone to find the cause of this problem, but you clearly have become very hostile towards opinions that do not conform to your own.

I really was interested to hear if there was any evidence regarding oval cylinder wear and piston ring contamination. I really was! More information is a good thing. I have an open mind. I have NOT intended to offend you, but I guess I have pressed the wrong buttons and you have taken it personally, and I'm very sorry about that.

 

[briwy]

We have a 2014 180 4 Motion so I'm mildly interested in this situation.
One thing I have mentioned before is the use of cheap supermarket fuel. I'm fully aware that all fuel has to conform to certain minimum standards but there is no doubt that whilst it may make no noticable difference to the way the engine runs it will most certainly make a difference to its longevity including associated components like EGRs.
Before having Californias we had Mazda Bongos, all diesels and whilst the Bongo engine is old design compared to the Calis the principle is the same with the EGR. If we ever used cheap fuel the EGR would throw a wobbler and the van would go into limp mode. A tankful of branded fuel always cured it. I don't understand how anyone spends upwards of £50k and then won't spend a few more pence on decent fuel which will clean the engine more efficiently.
We are now on our seventh VW diesel and have always had the oil changed yearly at least, depending on the mileage, never had a problem with some of them doing 150k and still going like a train.
IMO long term servicing is just asking for trouble.