Increased Oil Consumption Problem (2010 T5 Cali 180 bhp)

[deccauk]

Volkswagen don't listen!

Off to look at my EGR - May 2015 build. What's your bets?

Type C

 

[pjm-84]

Yep.

Good or bad?

 

[WelshGas]

Yep.

Good or bad?

Who knows?

There is a sad lack of Grade 1 Published Evidence, but plenty of conjecture and theories.

 

[snowy55]

there is also a reduction in iron contamination

If the D type valve stops the engine wear then both the aluminium piston and the iron engine bores readings will both drop down.

 

[briwy]

This thread seems to be assuming that the excessive oil consumtion is due to bore wear but there are other reasons like valve guide wear, poor valve seals, possible head gasket problem, porous castings. Driving style, lots of cold engine starts, short journeys, type of fuel, etc.
Has anyone actually had a problem engine that has been stripped down to ascertain the true cause of the problem on that particular unit.
As Welsh Gas has pointed out, lots of conjecture, no facts.

 

[snowy55]

Here is some more conjecture.


I've seen aluminium oxide mentioned as regards the wear problem.




If the aluminium particles that break off the EGR internals get burnt in the combustion process then you get:-


Aluminium burns when exposed to a flame, as it is a reactive and flammable metal. It burns in oxygen with a white flame and by forming aluminium trioxide.


What is aluminium trioxide?


Al2O3. It is called alumina and alundum. It is used as an abrasive and is the basis for ruby and sapphire. In its pure form it is used in the manufacture of aluminium metal.


If this material gets stuck in the gap between the top of the piston and the top piston ring, the land, then premature wear will take place in both the aluminium piston and the engine block bore.


Even if the aluminium particles don't get hot enough to form aluminium trioxide and still get stuck in the piston land then premature wear is likely to take place.

Just a thought!

 

[BerndRos]

All this talk about reasons for the Oil Consumption issues, and examining the likely causes from every angle....what's the point ?

If your worried it seems the safest option is to upgrade to EGR 'D'...which may help.

If your engine drinks Oil at a litre every few hundred miles, your choice is to feed it and live with the problem, or get a new engine.

Is it not that straight forward ?

 

[briwy]

Well no not really.
If VW are paying yes, but if it's costing around £1500 and you are paying and there is no proof the EGR is at fault then no it's not straightforward. I'd be well P****d off if it made no difference.

 

[BerndRos]

Well no not really.
If VW are paying yes, but if it's costing around £1500 and you are paying and there is no proof the EGR is at fault then no it's not straightforward. I'd be well P****d off if it made no difference.

Life is a risk, and we make our choices.

People on here could pay to get a definitive reason for the 180BHP engine maladies, but that is not feasible.

We could ask VW, but as they will never ever admit liability, they won't tell us even though they must know 100%.

So my post above seems the straight forward way forward.

 

[B J G]

Due to the very expensive costings of replacing the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) I'd be very quick to take action on high oil consumption. It gets clogged up by oil etc.
I've read that a DPF can cost more than an engine replacement although there are cleaning processes available now.
More stringent MOT testing is coming as there are allegedly many DPF's out there with their internals removed as a cheap fix to clogging up.

 

[calicasas]

All this talk about reasons for the Oil Consumption issues, and examining the likely causes from every angle....what's the point ?

If your worried it seems the safest option is to upgrade to EGR 'D'...which may help.

If your engine drinks Oil at a litre every few hundred miles, your choice is to feed it and live with the problem, or get a new engine.

Is it not that straight forward ?

Not if you can't afford a £9k engine replacement or £1.5k EGR replacement... The other problem is that no ones really knows that the 'D' type EGR really solves the problem over the long term. Also does engine replacement really solve the problem if you don't know what the problem is? As posted earlier, it requires VW to investigate and publish the information.
It's for this reason I wouldn't buy a California again....

 

[cpjb@btinternet.com]

I think I'm going to take the engine out and convert mine to something like the Ant Hill Mobs car in Wacky Races. No guessing who Dastardly is!!

 

[Meoncoast]

Although our 2012 van was not using oil & I decided when we got to 63k on the clock and we we would upgrade to a T6 as we wanted to continue with our camper van life style. I am some what relieved reading all these issues and restless nights 180 owners are now facing that I sold ours. What started as issues between 2010 and 2011 now seem to be a possible ticking time bomb for all 180 owners. Ours has a "A" type EGR. which now has also become a concern. This problem is going to run on & on unless VW make a U turn in ownership of this issue. Will anyone looking to buy a VW Cali/transporter take the 180 risk at this time. (I know I would not now)

I feel for those who's have had too have a new engine and those who have a pre "D" type EGR and all who are wondering is "my oil line going to come on"

 

[AlanC]

The EGR on the 140 is on the back of the engine and can be changed in 40 mins on the drive, as mine was on a 140 Kombi, the 180 is on the front of the engine and needs all the front bodywork, radiator and intercooler taking off.

I gather from the FB page that other VW engine EGR Coolers are made of Stainless Steel.
Only the 180 engine has one made of aluminum alloy.

Can anyone confirm this?

Alan

 

[briwy]

Do Millers give any instruction as to how the sample should be taken?
Obviously whereabouts the sample is taken from and when will make a difference. ie .if its taken from the bottom of the sump when the vehicle has been standing there is more likleihood of there being particles in the sample than if the engine has been running and the oils stirred up.

 

[B J G]

Do Millers give any instruction as to how the sample should be taken?
Obviously whereabouts the sample is taken from and when will make a difference. ie .if its taken from the bottom of the sump when the vehicle has been standing there is more likleihood of there being particles in the sample than if the engine has been running and the oils stirred up.

Relevant information here.
I have personally contacted Millers Oils on another subject and got a clear & informative response.

http://www.millersoils.co.uk/automotive/millercare.asp

 

[briwy]

Relevant information here.
I have personally contacted Millers Oils on another subject and got a clear & informative response.

http://www.millersoils.co.uk/automotive/millercare.asp

Thanks for that but it doesn't answer my question about how and when the sample is to be taken from the vehicle.

 

[B J G]

Thanks for that but it doesn't answer my question about how and when the sample is to be taken from the vehicle.

Thought it did but all you need do is go to Miller's site and click on Services then Technical Help Desk and you will see email contact information on the left.
Just email them directly for a first hand reply.

 

[briwy]

OK thanks

 

[Looby]

OK thanks

I would appreciate it if you could share any info you get from them as I too have been unable to find any guidelines on their website. Thanks.

 

[veg_frenzy]

Further to my earlier post (number112) where I reported the benefits that a member of the german TX forum had experienced after replacing his EGR with a type D, I have seen the current TX forum spreadsheet which includes his data.

The figures he quoted were as follows:

===============================
Here again summarized my values ??per 1,000 km running performance:

Sample before change, iron 11.62, aluminum 27.12
1. Sample thereafter, iron 5.37, aluminum 6.64
2. Sample thereafter, iron 4.92, aluminum 4.06
===============================

It turns out that those figures are not ppm, but are ppm per 1000km of usage on the oil.

His actual oil analysis data from the spreadsheet is as follows (mileage in km):

Van mileage / Oil Mileage / Iron ppm / Aluminium ppm
53,925 / 4,646 / 54 / 126
64,109 / 3,913 / 21 / 26
68,020 / 3,447 / 17 / 14

Assuming he changed the oil when he replaced the EGR, the EGR change would have been at 60,196km.

That is a rather spectacular reduction in aluminium...

Very interesting. Do you know (or can you source) the Si (silica) level for these analysis also? Thanks.

 

[veg_frenzy]

All,

I agree, the thread lay almost dormant from Oct 16 till Feb 17. I only read it because Veg Frenzy had posted then and our van is the same age as his. To be honest, I expected someone to tell him that it didn't apply to vans of our year 2014, ours hasn't ever needed us to add any oil. Now I can see that it could be a future issue and although I really wish that wasn't the case, I do prefer to know about it.

Can I ask those who have had oil samples tested as a precaution (the one to show metal pollution in the oil, not the one for increased oil consumption) did you order the Millers kit online and do it yourself or did you take the van independent garage? I would need someone to post an idiots guide for me.

I ordered on line and did it myself. Results back this morning.......bad news...failing on silicon (38 v 15 ppm max) and aluminium (65 v 30 ppm max). This oil has only done ~ 3900 miles (oil should be good for 24000 miles)!!!!!! Most likely root cause is EGR cooler/valve assembly........now trying to decide approach with VW, whom to date have denied the problem exists, offered no material advise and will not pay for any diagnostics. Not happy!

 

[2into1]

@veg_frenzy, you've been introducing silica into the mix (well silica in your question then silicon in your results post... Did you mean silica?).
Can I ask what the silica levels might indicate and where could high levels be arising from?

 

[Spartan]

It's an old article (1998 - possibly pre-dating common use of EGR systems?) but some good information here regarding silicon/silica and engine oil:

http://machinerylubrication.com/Read/89/silicon-engine-oil

Edit: right at the end of the article it is noted that "silicon is alloyed to aluminum to reduce its rate of expansion". Perhaps the aluminium alloy used for the manufacture of the VW EGR cooler contains silicon for this purpose?

Edit(2): In fact, I can see from pictures that the (Pierburg manufactured for VW) EGR cooler is stamped with "AlSi10Mg(Fe)" - a grade of aluminium used for casting with a "high" Silicon content (9-11%). All Images I can find of the part numbers "03L115512", "03L115512A", "03L115512C" & "03L115512D" share the exact same stamp so perhaps we can assume that at least the material has not changed between versions?

There is more information about the Pierburg "Prize-winning EGR cooler made of aluminum" [sic] here:

https://www.pressebox.com/pressrele...ning-EGR-cooler-made-of-aluminum/boxid/202303

 

[briwy]

Answer from Millers re my query about when/how to take the oil sample.

"Hello Brian
Thank you for your enquiry and a oil sample is best taken when the engine has been run for a while like you have said so that everything is mixed up. Most customer sample when the oil is being changed and take a sample out of the sump. If the vehicle is not due to have a oil change then you can take off the oil filter and take a sample out of there or a sample can be taken with a syringe and tubing from the dip stick as well . There is no point in taking a sample if the vehicle has only done a couple of thousand miles it needs to have done at least 4000 miles.

Kind Regards

Nigel."